Crunch
 

Where is this all heading?

I still feel things need to get a lot worse before they can start getting better, and the combination of the banking/housing/oil/credit crises rolled into one is a daunting prospect.

Anyone feeling the pinch in their own lives? I've definitely noticed my clients having less to spend, plus the rising cost of food and energy eating into my monthly outgoings.

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I think we are all pulling our belts a little tighter, but of course the knock-on effect of that is less consumer spending, less profit for businesses, more redundancies and so on. Bring back Keynes, I say!:D (Except our governments have no money to inject into the economy because they are still fighting senseless, expensive wars instead.)

It's gonna be a rough ride for a year or two.

Meanwhile, I am planning to dig up a patch of my garden and grow my own veg next year. Yes, really. Me. :eek:

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You mean, you... a city-type!!? :D

Funnily enough I was going to do that a few years ago too.

Then we got this chap...

http://i35.tinypic.com/idduua.jpg

...which quickly put paid to that idea. :rolleyes:

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May I suggest a few bunches of cilantro? The medical benifits are compelling.

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Cilantro = the difference between good salsa and great salsa. Especially when you make your own.

I tracked down the recipe for Chipotle's Roasted Corn Salsa a couple of weeks ago and the first batch was good but once I added about 50% more diced cilantro when making the second batch, the result was godlike. Yes, godlike.

Sucks about those banks btw.

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I was laid off from my job in February, and (after a temp job) I'm still looking for another job that doesn't involve flipping burgers or wiping up someone's poop. So yeah, I'm feeling the pinch.

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I had to look this up and realised it's corriander leaf in UK English. Yes! Will do! :D

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well, as a vegetable grower for a number of years i feel very sorry for the poor bankers...........though i don't think the two are connected?:confused:

actually, the capitalist pigs are getting what they deserve i just don't want a penny of my tax going to help any of them out...i hope the whole global capitalist system falls apart;)

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Come the Revolution, up against the wall, bang bang bang! (c) Tooting Popular Front :D

Sorry I got side-tracked on the vegetable gardening thingy.

Well, Marx always said that capitalism would eat itself, and that seems to be what has happened to these greedy gits. Pressure-sell mortgages and re-mortgages to people who can't afford to repay them, then sell bonds on those mortgages, then speculate on the bonds and so on ad nauseam. South Sea Bubble anyone?

Edit: Lovely quote here:

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More views from the Left on the current crisis and the future of capitalism:

Crunch Time

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Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End In Sight
Asian markets tumble

Um, we're all fucked. :(

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Oh, gambit, don't a drama queen.(I'm just joking) But still don't be such a fucking drama queen.

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Just about every leftie in Britain is in that lot!

Tony Benn's remark struck a chord...
And while I don't share the view that we're seeing the death of capitalism or anything like that, I am still wondering: is all this still just the beginning?

Incidentally, today's Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS is not something I'm entirely happy about - the size of an institution like that can't be healthy, can it?

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I'm surprised Sarah Palin hasn't yet sought to blame the tumultuous last 7 days in the markets on that thing the scientists at CERN switched on last Wednesday. :p

(3 topical issues for the price of one joke! Damn, I'm wasted here...)

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Nor do i, i'm just dreaming!;)

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so am i usually;)

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Never be sorry about talking vegetable gardening! its the right and proper thing to do if you want fresh organic food which is not what you get in the veg section at the supermarkets.......:D:D

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Haha!

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Right.

Been reading a little bit about this whole mess. Thought I'd throw these links out for those others interested.

Subprime works

Simple - yet vaguely powerful.

Subprime Crisis - the Bird and Fortune view

Class act.

Freakonomics FAQ

Bringing Down Bear Stearns

Not the current crisis - but all linked me thinks.

McMansions? The new slums

Moving on up? Don't think so.

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The first link pretty applies to any 'paper' not just subprime. Yet that's pretty much how it worked for awhile.

The below link is the text of the draft proposal submitted for the bailout plan:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/bu...in&oref=slogin

Section 8 of the text titled 'Review' scares the crap out of me.
Sec. 8. Review.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

I hope people in Congress grow a pair and don't force this through without some review.

Jason

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I have to say I am amazed at Poulson's plan to buy up the bad debt in the market rather than nationalise, like we did with Northern Rock here. At least with a nationalisation, the government would gain some benefit from the continued operation of these banks. As it stands, the government and the American tax payer will be taking a huge hit for seemingly no benefit at all, aside from "keeping the market viable".

However, I am incensed at Poulson's suggestion that if the US go down this route of sponging up all the gambling debts of the rich Wall Street players to keep the market afloat, that other countries should follow suit. For what? So the same greedy-bastard players can continue to make private fortunes out of non-existant equity while taxpayers suffer further cuts in funding for health, education, welfare, etc. etc., not to mention the risk that their personal taxes will be hiked up to fill this greed-and-stupidity black hole?

:mad:

And excuse me but - wtf?! :eek:
$2,500,000,000 divided by 10,000 is $250k, if my maths is right. What possible reason could there be for paying these schmucks an average quarter of a million bonus each? For doing such a good job in fleecing the people, the shareholders and the government and still having a company left to sell to Barclays? Give me strength! :mad:

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Hear, f'ing, hear.

And once again I'd like to trot out my man Ron Paul who, because he called this years ago, is now back on the news and being asked for comment, this time with a lot less smirk and more wide eyes.

I understand the free market/strict constitutionalist bent may tarnish his logic for some of you, but I think everyone on the left can see this bail out in similar terms. a fabricated debt ridden solution to a fabricated debt ridden problem. extra points for those that see the fascist elements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8

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....and look what happened.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...Q&refer=canada

clockwork....:rolleyes:

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Just a little bit.

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http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/mark...ex.htm?cnn=yes

"...go on and BLOW it..." I think satan's got something for you. Shell.

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I just hope penny chews don't go up.

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I'm really no economist, so I have to grasp at what little I can and make limited judgments on that. But these two points of Paul's just make me worried... (worried that he's right, not worried that he's wrong)

"You can't solve the problem of inflation - that is, money and credit out of thin air - with more money and credit out of thin air"

"The bubble has been blown up, it needs to deflate - but they won't allow it"

I've been reading similar comments to this elsewhere. Can the government/Fed/whoever* (*see, that's how ignorant I am about this) really have got it that wrong, or been that short-sighted? :confused:

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Now that's the kind of economics I understand. ;)

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Its both the Fed (federal reserve) and government. The federal reserve is a private entity that controls the money supply. They've been responsible for artificially extending the bubble by keeping down interest rates on loans between banks. If its down, then banks can loan more money to people for things like businesses and houses and stuff.

They've been printing money far past the net worth of the country's assets. Which is the *real* cause of the food and oil spikes. Its not that these things are more scarce, its that inflation has caused these things to be more expensive because the dollar is weakened. Which causes a feedback loop because investors that would normally be in the money are moving to commodities like gold and oil to hedge off inflation, which causes even more inflation! You see that exact thing happening in the bloomberg article I posted. The fed prints money like its the new york times sunday paper, the dollar falls, and everything goes up in cost.

This has been happening since just after WW1 in this country and we've seen the value of the dollar drop like this ever since.

The thing is we've always managed to create enough objective wealth through technology and innovation to shoulder up the economy later. So the american economy has been like an irresponsible uncle going through the earnings of the family business, so far so good, or at least that's the shit crazy optimism we console ourselves with. In other words we can afford to act irresponsibly because of the margins provided by innovation.
But there's a limit and so why not just act responsibly? this is the perspective that you just don't see these days.

Its like the housing market. Before, to get into a house you had to have 10% - 20% down for a fixed interest, conventional loan. And the value of the house would be well within the 2.5 times your annual salary ceiling. Which was easy because housing was a shit load cheaper than it is now. The majority of mortgage loans were conventional. Now the vast majority are exotic ARM, interest only jobs, and I don't think many people in the past 4 years bought houses valued less than 2.5 times their annual income. That's because nobody can afford a conventional loan anymore.

And this is my point. Its not like the 2.5 annual or 10% minimum down are arbitrary or political or subject to whim. They fall out of the reality of mortgates. If you have any chance of paying the fucker back, the math dictates the probabiliity of risk optimized around these margins.

So who the hell thought it was a good fucking idea to throw money at anyone with a 600 credit score to buy a mcmansion where a farm used to be? The same fuckers we're bailing out, watering down my savings that I've put aside for my conventional home loan so that responsible people like me get fucked both ends.

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pshaw. tell that to zimbabwe.

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............:eek:.........i've got to be careful i don't drop dead of an apoplexy caused by these........scumbags.........(not you lot, the capitalist pigs i mean). I'd like to shove their bonuses where the sun don't shine;)

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Right?

Since when has it been all right to fuck over your nation?

Let's give ya a bonus for your outstanding role model of progression.

I don't give a shit about being on restriction!

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Time Vol. 172, No. 13 | 2008: Verbatim p. 17. First quote.

NO WAY!! I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!

Keep blowing boys, practice makes perfect! And you don't want to piSS the big red guy off.

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well i'm also not one for whom the phrase "getting the government off our backs" sums of what's wrong with the world.

That said, there's far too much marginalization between the left and libertarian camps. The left should begin to see a comrad in arms against government/corporate collusion which is the very definition of fascism, and get over the scary words like "free market'

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I was just kidding(in the voice of the Poltergiest little lady way).

He seems like he'd be fun to get drunk with. In a COMPLETELY plutonic(sp?) relationship of course. I bet he talks some funny shit.

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So - no research of mine - but a judicious link from another friend brings out this small gem of policy from the GOP.

Rebuilding Home Ownership

"At the same time, government action must not implicitly encourage anyone to borrow more than they can afford to repay. We support energetic federal investigation and, where appropriate, prosecution of criminal wrongdoing in the mortgage industry and investment sector. We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all."

So - about that 700 billion.

Your party says one thing - your President asks for another - and Palin just babbles about Putin.

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LOL at the new, improved scam email :

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I can totally see him wearing some kind of leather get up, no?

Oh and with this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26906967/.

Third word needs to be edited to read "higheverythingd". Use your imagination. LOOK it's a new word.

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Kucinich says no to the Bail-Out Bill.

Interesting reading indeed... :eek:

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Interesting times. Even before the bailout - sorry, rescue plan - was rejected.

The BBC's Robert Peston makes me want to get out the razor blades sometimes.