Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

well, do ya? huh?

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

nope. i should but i dont. its a sign of the times. i had also pre-ordered the DVD package and usually end up buying more copies of the album and singles than is even necessary so i sleep well at night.

i DO feel guilty sharing it, so im more of the leecher kind. I downloaded it, but removed it from my share folder.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I thought Scott said we'd leave the philosophy of whether or not to download the leaked copy alone.
Although, i guess if you've already made your decision to DL (and not pay), you can justify the guilt away however you want. :p

Patiently awaiting Oct. 16th for my preorder to arrive :)
i'm not ruining my UW Christmas in October

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Downloading simply to hear the album before it comes out isn't bad at all. If anything, it should be flattering to the band that we want to hear the music that bad. I pre-oredered OWB the second it was available but I was just to anxious to hear the new music. If people are going to DL and not pay, that's their own business. The way I see it....if I DL and like it, I buy it to show support.
The guilty ones should be the ones who DL, enjoy it, and not buy.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

no, because i didn't download the thing.

how does it feel to not be a real fan?

*ohhh, that's cold!*

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

yeah, but it gets tricky when the material isn't available to buy [easily]
(not in this case), although what about that extra track on the japanese
version, or extra tracks on the japanese Itunes, etc...promo mixes..etc..

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

ask this on another forum and yeah well its a different issue, but i seriously think that most people here will buy it regardless of downloading it

the thing is that the people who download stuff just for the sake of downloading stuff tend not to have been the one or are the ones who go out and buy anyway...


its the same issue with people watching pirate copies of movies and the movie companies saying its casuing a decline in cinema going, well these people never went to the movies anyway..

i have no issue with downloading it personally because i have bought it already...

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

also, if i did feel guilty,
why isn't there an option to say yes?

because i would be too guilty to vote yes?

-1

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

1. who said anything about not paying? i've already paid for 3 diff. versions of this album. if you're posting to the Underworld message boards, the odds are good you're enough of a fan to buy their albums.

2. ruining? you're implying that those who have heard it already have ruined the experience or something. that's ridiculous. i'm thrilled. i haven't had this much fun walking to and from work, or listening to music at work since the Cocoon broadcast. i waited to hear the album until it leaked on thursday. that build up of 5 years was more than sufficient for me to take extreme pleasure and satisfaction in listening to Oblivion with Bells right now! i don't think waiting 2 weeks would have made a difference in my enjoyment of the album. not one time in the past 5 or 6 years have i ever wished i'd waited to hear an album that i downloaded. not one time!

but it's all about the "EXPERIENCE", the opening of the package, reading the liner notes, cutting out the pictures from Teen Beat.

alternately, its about seeing a post on a message board, logging into your fav. torrent site, see the album you've been waiting to leak finally being shared, download immediately, watch with your heart pounding as the progress bar successfully reveals with each passing second more and more bits of data coming together in that newly created folder, piecing together the sounds you've waiting 5 long years to hear. you see a link to a high quailty jpg. you flip through the tour book you bought at one of the recent live shows. actually several times larger than the cd booklet. you follow links to reviews and message board discussions already occuring with the hundreds who already downloaded while you were sleeping. they're 3 pages into a discussion about the album already so you better catch up. since you don't have to rip the audio to mp3 you just stick it on your media player of choice and begin listening non-stop. you join the conversation that's already in full flow. you participate in dissecting the album, the artwork, diff. versions etc.

by the time those holier than thou, moral stewards have had their albums delivered or purchased from the shops, the discussion has died down and there's a seperate thread for the 3 people to repeat whats been discussed and rehashed for weeks already.

enjoy.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

just to say 'hear hear' to brotherlovesdub...

but what about those people in japan that are getting it early?
should they wait until everyone else in the world gets it before
talking about it?

whats the line from 'serenity'?

you can't stop the signal..

-1

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I'm with you, I can wait.
Getting the leaked version ruins the event for me.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

this quote is a beauty, i'm speechless! and that's how it's done nowadays..

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

You've said this before, and no one's doubting you're a fan who will support the band by paying. But this argument is weak. It would be like saying, i have a shopping cart full of food i'm buying, so i'm entitled to an extra bag of chips. I don't care if you bought 50 copies of the album. Did you pay for the one you downloaded? UW get no money from all the leaked copies. My suggestion is you pay then again for this copy.

I'll agree with you that enjoyment of a new release is an individual matter, so i'm glad you are thrilled with going about it your way, and maybe that's the way many people do it in this digital age of hurry up and gimme now. I for one like a tangible product and the expectation of waiting for when something's set to be released. To each their own. But the almost- immediate gratification of downloading the leak and then talking about all elements does, in my opinion, lessen the enjoyment for those who waited. Not saying that every thread here needs a spoiler alert, and it's great to see the buzz OWB is generating. But collective (and many individual) opinions of the album have been formed before i even got a chance to listen to it. For me, that's like waiting for Christmas morning and two weeks beforehand, someone tells you what's in the packages.

By the way, feeling entitled to something for free because you've purchased so much other stuff ior are a fan is also being holier than thou. The rules apparently don't apply to everyone.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I have two things to say.

First, amen, to BLD.

Secondly, this is my right under the fair use provisions of U.S. copyright law, specifically the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I guess I had one more thing to say. I do generally agree with this sentiment. But that's neither here nor there for me, regarding downloading this album. From a moralist perspective, I feel fine (not necessarily entitled) with downloading this album, because I've already paid for it.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Fair Use, in my opinion. i've got a digital copy, degraded in quality from the original. i feel entitled to make copies of the items i purchase and i feel entitled to download without paying for lossy file formats. i'm getting digital files, they are absolutely worthless to me. i wouldn't pay for them unless that was the only format offered like the River Runs, which i paid for.

you're buying into the RIAA/MPAA's argument hook, line and sinker. the rules you say don't apply to everyone have been twisted by money hungry corprate conglomerates. i'm not interested in following their rules.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

[quote=BrotherLovesDub]Fair Use, in my opinion. i've got a digital copy, degraded in quality from the original. i feel entitled to make copies of the items i purchase and i feel entitled to download without paying for lossy file formats. i'm getting digital files, they are absolutely worthless to me. i wouldn't pay for them unless that was the only format offered like the River Runs, which i paid for.
quote]

bld, i also agree about the downloads,

but (i'm sure) you can download the full version (lossless FLACS/WAVS)from some sites. is that against the copyright rules?

-1

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

i've paid for the product already, as echospin charges the card as you ordered.
so i paid, my money is gone, and i have no physical product.
if we wanted to do this circus that holden's trying to hold up in the face of BLD's staggeringly good post, then we could say that i'm entitled to downloading it.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Well, there hasn't really been any case law established for situations like this ("I downloaded it, but I already own it"). My personal feeling is that even perfect copies (like FLAC) are fine, so long as you own it, have already ordered it, or will be purchasing it "soon".

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I'm not going to convince anyone that has already downloaded it that they shouldn't have. And i doubt anyone feels guilty anyway. In fact, "yes i feel guilty" was not even an option in the poll.
I'm not falling for any circus act or recording company spin. i've downloaded plenty in the past and have felt guilty about it. To my moral code it was stealing. If it's fine by you, consider it free use, getting an inferior product, however you justify it, go for it, i surrender. But don't insult me for my views.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I stumbled upon the link few days ago and i quickly turned away while trying to strike ALT F4. I don't want it. Two more weeks and i'll have the ultime soyokaze of smelling the foil wrapped around OWB

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

hmm...one user so far has used the 'undecided' option..

-1

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

no personal offense to you holden. i felt as if you were looking down on those who downloaded and you were taking a moral high road that assumed your stance was superiour.

here's a question for you holden. if you found a promo copy of the japanese collectors set in your local used cd shop before October 16, would you buy it?

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

why not
i think it's silly
it's entirely predicated on release dates as being a sacred date that shouldn't be broken and decides whether it's stealing or not.
it's already paid for.
and you're resenting everyone talking about it because you havent heard it yet and we're spoiling it.
it's selfish and silly.
it's silly even having this conversation again and again
this thread should be jettisoned

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

It's cool.

Hmmm, well, the japanese release date is October 3, so if i was lucky enough to find the promo, yes, i'd buy it, provided it was official (i.e. not a copy) as it's out when it was supposed to be out. i never understood why different regions had different release dates, or different versions for that matter...makes he rest of the world feel slighted!:p

To your earlier point that most of the people who post here and downloaded the leak are true fans and will buy the CD anyway...i totally agree with you. But note that there are also a lot of new members on here. Let's hope they will also go any buy it. The leak links have appeared on other boards i've seen, and i dunno if those are fans who will go and buy it. One can't tell, but it's just realistic to expect that for everyone who does buy it, there's quite a few less albums sold becuase someone was happy enough with the rip.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

holden, the laws about buying and selling promos are black and white. it is illegal for shops to sell promos. it says so on the promo sticker. that copy belongs to the record label. the scenario is no different. both ways you're illegally obtaining the album before it's released to your region. these laws aren't enforced, but it's still illegal. it's just what laws you choose to follow.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

You're silly! :p
And yeah, you are spoiling it for me and others, too, so where's the selfishness in that? I'd say it's selfish to take more than you should.

But i'm apparently greatly outnumbered and not getting through.
So yes, let's jettison the thread and agree to disagree.
No hard feelings.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

To the best of my knowledge, the person that leaked this was not a Dirt and certainly did not announce on here that he/she had leaked it. I doubt if they even read the boards. It was out there. Once something has been leaked, it is obviously a personal matter as to whether one wants to listen to it in advance or not, but there is nothing an individual can do to prevent its dissemination. Once the damn is burst, it is pointless trying to gather water in a bucket and take it back up to the other side of the river again.

If I was given a promo copy of something with a "not to be distributed" caveat on it, I most certainly would not leak it to all and sundry the way this was. But the fact is, it is out there for all and sundry, fan or not, potential buyer or not, to leech to their heart's content. I would rather it wasn't but that is a sad fact of life these days.

Yes, it is damaging to the band when stuff is leaked. Without a doubt. But do I think that fans from a fansite downloading this is damaging them any further, once that initial leak has happened? Absolutely not. The analogy to the extra pack of chips in the supermarket doesn't quite work somehow.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

i'm seriously of the opinion that the people who generally download albums are within (at least) three types -

those who download, and go on to buy the product when it is physically available - the long standing real fans... most of the people here...

those who download, just to listen to the material and then decide that its something that they like and then go back and buy the actual product (and even more material by the band) - i have personally done this - and as such a free, and illegal, download has resulted in my purchasing an album - which i might not have done previously

and

those who download, because they want to hear the album because its free, but would never have bought it in the first place - not actually a loss in sales...

in the 'old days' they would have likely have copied it off a friend, if it was recommened to them, like we used to do with cassettes back in the 80's - my mates used to copy albums they liked, and give me albums i'd never have bought anyway, so in effect the band were never losing out and actually gaining a 'fan' through this sharing...

its a difficult argument, but i honestly think enough people buy product in one way or another...

1 billion plus paid for downloads on itunes (at their extortionate rate of charging) is testment to the fact that people are still willing to pay for materials... i'd like to see stats, but no one will ever be able to verify properly that 1 illegal download = 1 lost sale - which they try and do with things like movie downloads...

when the phantom menace came out, fox claimed that x million downloads meant x million people didn't go see the movie or buy the dvd, which simply wasn't the case, i went to see the movie, came back and downloaded it, then bought the dvd... anyone who wanted to see the movie (as an event at the theatre) would have gone and paid to see it, those who illegally downloaded it, either went on to see it or had seen it, or were never gonna go see it in the first place...

i don't agree with people making money out of copying - i.e. dvd pirates, but sharing a good product is fair, imo

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Let's be honest, there is definitely a 4th category of people who pirate instead of buying, flat out. I have friends who even pirate from their favorite bands.

But the "try and buy" people do somewhat make up for that. I too have bought quite a few records after pirating them. I always try to purchase something if i enjoyed it enough to warrant another listen.

Obviously, the "never would have bought in the first place" and the "definitely would have bought in the first place" people don't tip the scales either way.

So it's not as bad as the RIAA makes it out to be. It's definitely NOT 1 download = 1 lost sale. That's for sure.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

whew, at least i know there will be 2 other people discussing with me:D

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

preordered the special order long before anything was available anywhere, and last night I bought the album on iTunes Japan for the bonus tracks.

Paying up-front for the album during preorder absolved me of any guilt I might have had otherwise. Paying for the album twice just seals the deal.

To me, downloading the album early is far less of a crime than releasing bonus tracks in some markets and not in others - that's just plain cruel.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

The simple answer for me is no.

I have a flac rip of the Japanese version in my car, and a paid for Japanese version coming to me by airmail. If I hadn't downloaded, I'd just have made that rip myself for in-car use (ever since I had a Japanese double CD worth a fortune stolen from my car, and long out of print irreplaceable CD scratched in my glovebox, I only use CDRs in the car). All I'm doing is timeshifting the arrival of the CD I've already paid for. I'll even get that 'unwrapping the new album' feeling when it does arrive, because of the bonus DVD.

I have no moral issues with 'try before I buy' torrenting, because I buy lots of CDs that I wouldn't have without bitotrrent.. and in this case it's 'try after I buy, but before delivery', which is even less morally objectionable to me.

Do I feel guilty about seeding back about 7% of the flac rip before I the download finished and I jumped off the torrent? Hmm... yes actually, I do.

I only feel ok with seeding things that are long out of print, and I fall back on the admittedly weak reasoning that if I didn't seed new albums someone else would. I jumped off the torrent asap, as I always do with new releases.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

well...seems like im missing out, didnt even know there was a leaked copy.

funny enough, i still like buying CD's over digital downloads (which is do also legally, at times) becuase i listen to most of my music in the car, and it doesnt have mp3 capablities. maybe im living in the past?

anyway, whats this about a dvd box thing?

p.s...they should doa radiohead and allow people to download thier album and name their price. this should sort the real fans from the leechers

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Rick and Karl are in the new issue of Teen Beat???

OMG!

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

Actually, property law and First Sale doctrine pretty much trump those little stamps the record companies put on the promos. Well, it's currently being tested in litigation, but I think the EFF's arguments will win.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...rap-eulas.html

To some small extent, but I think in reality, losses due to the flat-out pirates far outweighs any benefit gained from the "try and buyers".


Actually, I have a problem with the people in this category. The ones who say "Well, this album I downloaded is not a lost sale since I never would have bought it in the first place," or "Downloading Photoshop isn't stealing, because I never could have afforded to buy it anyway." I find those rationales to be extremely disingenuous. The reason being is that these people are deriving enjoyment and utility from what they downloaded. Just because they would never have plunked down the money for it, doesn't mean they can suddenly enjoy the benefits of the works. That's just wrong.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

^^^
what about if you use a downloaded version of Ablteton, and make some really crakin tunes on it...and then share your tunes. is there a point where the enjoyment others can get from your tunes outweighs the 1000 youv essentially gotten away with?

i always thought that line to be one hip-hop track and two electro-house tracks. get them down pat, and the programme is yours....seriously

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

I think that downloading the album isnt such a bad thing.however, distributing it is. with a download youre only damaging the experience for yourself. by spreading it then you are contributing -even in the smallest way- to piracy and harming sales of the album.

thats why i dont care if you download it but i dont like to see any links to possible downloads on this forum.

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

thats kinda like seeing a car crash and not helping, imo

its ok for someone to distribute it and then everyone to grab it, but those people who do grab it cannot then share it... its backwards logic really... but i kinda get the point here on this site specifically

also its kinda like someone smashing the window of a shop, the first crime, then everyone else (looters) running in and grabbing the goods, the second crime...

i agree it shouldn't be shared on a site 'partly' linked with the band, and its not hard for people to find a leaked copy... so sharing here is wrong, but sharing the wealth elsewhere - thats a matter of moral conciousness for the individual -

if i had something worthwhile i'd share with a friend, but wouldn't wholly upload an album to a random site for all and sundry, because that to me personally would be damaging to the band...

the second issue is sharing after the album is officially released - is that more or less damaging???

Re: Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?
 

i dont agree with your analogy about a car crash at all. people maybe dying in a car crash. and it has nothing in common with file downloading. or maybe youd care to elaborate. :confused:

as for the looting, that analogy doesnt work either. it would only work if you were stealing something from the window that you might have purchased in the near future, and the stuff that youve stolen isnt as easily replicated as an mp3.

If you want an analogy, then this is like busting the end-drug user and not the dealer. downloaders are drug users. if you start distributing the album then you become the dealer.