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The beginning of UW mkII?
Okay, question for the big fans, and this is open to debate...
When did Underworld begin as a dance-oriented electronic band? When Daz joined and they began remixing as Steppin' Razor or with releases as Lemon Interrupt? Or, to be literal, would it be the first "Underworld" release as a threesome? The reason i ask is that the first incarnation of UW released "Change the Weather" in 1989. But then there's the unreleased demotape from 1990, of which Rick said in an interview (i'm forgetting the source) that this was more experimental and electro. The fact that we have a gig from 1990 when they played a version of "M.E." that's very similar to the Dubno version makes that period around 1990 kinda confusing. Though Darren Emerson def. helped steer them into a dance direction, and wasn't a big fan of their industrial funk, i would like to believe that Rick and Karl were already making steps before they met him...is that a fair assessment? Holden |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
when the drummer went after the 1990 tour i think. when they went off to make demos. i've heard the demo version of ME and a live version from Hamburg in sept 90. sounds nice but to hear an electronic version is great. it does seem like they are improv'ing at the end of the UW mk1 time.
glasto 92 experimental sound field is probably the beginning (in public anyway), followed by the release of the hump/ME single. I dont think Emerson joined until after that. but thats still Mk2 because theres no Alfie, and theyve gone electronic. just my $0.02 |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
well, i'm not gonna try and answer this authoritively, because the history from this period is a little blurred to my mind...
but as far as i know the first Mark II Underworld output was as 'Underworld' (mother earth & why why why) then as Lemon Interupt, then back to Underworld. Now i'm pretty certain that the ME/Why why why 12" didn't feature Darren Emerson, but probably didn't feature anyone else except R&K, and am almost certain that ME didn't feature any Emerson input because of it being on that demo (which i have a recording of from, 1990), which was before Darren joined...so i think that ME originates from the MK I days, but was left off the last MK I album...but it was deemed 'progressive' enough to be on the dance based why why why 12".... and as this was the first MK II release really, there was some kind of MK I & MK II overlap. The way i see it (although this is not in any way confirmed) is that they tested the water with the 500 pressed ME & Why Why Why, and it was popular...then spoke with Darren and asked for some more 'dance' based influences.... i think it was Steve Hall who introduced DE to R&K...and as ME & WWW was on the 'bands own 'Tomato' label, i'm assuming that they hadn't met Darren yet...Seeing as Steve is the label boss at JBO and every release after ME was on Boys Own or Junior Boys Own, i'm assuming that it was at this time that Darren became part of the band...when the band joined JBO...with the release of Lemon Interupt's Dirty & Eclipse 12's I think they were still on tour with the Eurythmics in 1990, so must have took a bit of time off after that and rethought their plans...held onto the ME track, and then met Darren....and the rest is history... http://www.bigscreensatellite.co.uk/history.htm please note that the above link is basically the same info as i've posted above and is not really any clearer! |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
wait... you mean ME / the Hump right?
or is there yet another record I am going to painstakingly search for, and never find? but yea - I am kinda agreeing a bit w/ BSS on this one... I think I've got that demo tape somewhere on one of my external harddrives, but I'm not sure. I remember that there's that one live gig in Hamburg, at least one BBC session (or at least some 'live in studio performance'), and maybe also this demo - which features some of the sounds that were later used on some of their other early mk2 tracks (I'll track down the files later and be more specific) -> but you've probably already got them ...but what I want to know is: so we've all heard about how Darren started spinning Mmm Skyscraper, and how they had different versions of the track, but the one that everyone loved was the vocal mix (this was before dubno). But, are the two 'non-vocal mixes' jamscraper and telegraph? or are they completely different tracks? I think that, even though Darren isn't credited on the song - Mmm Skyscraper was their first 'proper' track, as that was the one where they released 'hey we can totally do this' |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
Yeah, it was just so surprising to hear M.E. from 1990. i thought, "wow, that's almost exactly like the Lp version, with a few less bleeps and perhaps live drums"
That must've been an interesting period, 1990-92, as the boys were onto something new and releasing it into the public to much better response than the mkI output. Maybe the climate was right, with acid house having broken and the electro-funk-rock of "change the weather" and "underneath the radar" maybe falling by the wayside. Then again, from the UWLive posts during the creation of the as-of-yet unreleased new material, sounds like Karl's similrly excited with Rick's new output! Another question...if Darren Price is onboard for any of the studio releases, does that mean we have UW mkIV? :) |
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The Glasto 92 gig wasn't the first concert they did as mkII. They did a number of gigis as part of the Megadog thing.
This reminds me that I have to finish to translate the OOR interview/piece about kraftwerk. There's some more info in that about the beginning. Wouldn't it be time by now that a journalist or writer wrote a book about them? |
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yeah i did mean ME/The Hump & not WHY WHY WHY...i was at work and in a rush...now i've had more time to think...sorry for the confusion
but yeah i think there were some Megadog dates too...although the first one i went to was in 1993...was there one before June 1992 - Glastonbury...i thought the first one was in Nov of 1992... |
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'Faded Love' and 'Yours Faithfully' are the most mkII sounding songs on the 1990 demo. Lots of repetition of the lyrics and the music is cool, but still nowhere near the dubno sound.
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
Megadog 3 at Manchester Academey was the first with Underworld (in Manchester) this was 1993 November...not sure how many megadogs that there were before that, in London for example....
the key details are the time between the last MKI gig...(& the demos) and the first gig / recording with Darren... i reckon that the DE meeting up was probably in very late 1991 or early 1992...with some action almost immeadiately that year... |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
I dont know if all know about that i will say, but for your information in the 1st album (dubnobasswithmyheadman) Darren emerson had not participed to the composition of tracks, but only he gives his help to choice the sounds of the tracks, in this period Darren was only a dj, but not a compositor .
This information i have it from Coda magazine , it's a french techno magazine, and i have the Num who have in the darren interview (in 1996), if ones of you understand french i can write the total interview here. Sorry for my bad english |
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Aslo in this interview Darren said that rick is the most important persson of the band,
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
Just been updating the BSS collectable of the day, and its The Hump / ME today...
if this did indeed come out in around 1992, i've just remembered (discovered again) that it contains the details: 'remixed by Steppin Razor - Emerson & Smith' this detail is on the 'Hump' side....and NOT Mother Earth, as we assume that is left over from the old Mark I days.... also of note is that this 12" - the first of the Mark II era - contains the 'old' Underworld logo from the Underneath the Radar days, despite Tomato designing the label - the re-used the old Sire Undewrworld logo with the 'W' (pitchfork design) so this release is probably the exact cross over point...using new graphics from Tomato, & the input of Emerson, but the existence of the older Mother Earth Track & Underworld logo... |
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the hump came out in 1991 in the fall,i heard it first in the mix with "rave generator"by toxic two and i know that the imports of that were around autumn 91 ! massive in portugal.
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
further record datings:
Lemon Interupt - Big Mouth - my Test Pressing has the date...07.04.92 on it...(this is certainly Mark II Underworld) april 1992...so its quite possible that the Hump was conceived in 1991...released around that time.... |
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So ME/ The Hump was before Bigmouth/Eclipse?
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if anyone has any hard facts..that would help...;) |
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i'm portugals biggest fan,i'm sure !
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i don't doubt that ;) but it was a long time ago...i couldn't tell you who played what and when..back then... ...but the ME/The Hump 12" was rare and it is almost impossibly unlikely that it was ever imported out of the UK...it is quite possible that someone (a DJ) had a copy of it and played it in 1991, if it indeed was released then... but there is no confirmed release date for this - what i want from someone is 'proof' of sorts of when it was given out to dj's...a press release or chart or anything with a date of release... for now 1991 sounds about right for the record to become into existence... |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
When Underworld recorded, "Mmm Skyscraper I Love You".
Tell me that's not the coolest song you've ever heard. I dare you. |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
Okay, so i've been listening closely to the 1990 demo tape to look for vestiges and clues of the next phase of Rick and Karl's musical evolution. A couple comments:
"Sex Lies" and "Faith Healer" both feature some killer bass synthlines "Feel Me" features a guitar riff that is identical to the fadeout portion of "Mmm Skyscraper"... the vaguely flamenco two note bit. It's the same! The version of "Mother Earth" lacks some of the blips and backing vocals of the Dubno version, but the bassline is identical, as are the words and melody. The mail vocal sounds like it was the same., though the LP drops or rerecords Karl's self-accompaniment. The drumbeat has changed slightly...it's more upfront in the LP mix. The piano solo is almost the exact, as well. It was probably re-recorded for Dubno, too. But the more i hear this, the more i'm convinced that whole phrases/portions were integrated into the version we hear on Dubno some 3-4 years later! "Isolation" is dark and hard, and not only has an intro analog loop that's reminiscent of early Mk II (a la Rez, Cowgirl, etc), but also has a vododed vocal loop "Is there anybody is there anybody is there anybody body?" that's, imo, the grandfather of "everything everything everything" in "Cowgirl"! just my (over)analysis!;) holden |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
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It must be in time, when became DE full member of the group... 1993? What was first when DE did something with MK II? The Hump? If he is credited as SR mix on tyhe side as said BSS... And then Eclipse/ Bigmouth? |
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I'm not to sure myself, but I do remember the release date of Dubnobasswithmyheadman, so being overly-obvious, it was cerca 1993. Likely earlier?
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
nice analysis Holden
i've just been scouring my Underworld mp3's, and i have the ME demo from 1990 - which i just listened to - its dated just 0/0/1990...its recognisable as the version we know (but like the way Holden described it) I also have a live set played by UW MK I dated 09/09/1991, which also contains ME....which basically leaves about 3 months before 1992, so either they had ME/The Hump in the can...or this didn't come out until 1992...as i suspect....(the live version is still very guitar 'band' oriented...and sounds more like the MK I stuff than the MK II version)... more work to do on this analysis is supsect ;) |
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And Eclipse was made in 1992?
Has DE something to do with Eclipse? |
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I was thinking 1992 would be the likely year, since their compilation was entitled 1992-2002, and DE joining being the significant event to start the time frame.
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Thats logic, yeah |
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[color=teal]01 mother earth/the hump[/color]
Was a private pressing by the band, 500 copies Tomato Records released [color=lime]March 23, 1992[/color] [color=teal]02 bigmouth/eclipse[/color] [color=lime]june 18, 1992[/color] (Reissue 12" was April 21, 1995) Bigmouth/Dirty And April 19,1995 JBO 29 |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
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where did you get this info...who's quoting these dates...? |
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These dates i know from the guy who own underworld database, info of this database comes from a man from (Wax Trax) US label. |
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sorry info is incorrect.most info from waxtrax is wrong except regarding releases they were involved in."the hump" 1991,i can even tell you the dj that played it,where i heard it etc etc etc and i have good memory and a diary to prove it !
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I dont know if the info from Wax Trax is correct or no... We can check that, i heard these and sounds to me logic... Thats all... Are u absolutelly sure, that u heard Hump in 1991? |
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but i tend to agree with Undarrenworld - everyone has always suggested the Hump was released in 1992.... |
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hey no worries,i'm new and unproven but i have the knowledge.
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
About the beginning of Underworld mkII, here is a good interview realeased in 1996 by the french electronic magazine 'Coda' , the interview is with Darren Emerson :
P.s: The interview is in french :D The interview: Underworld, aujourd'hui, c'est Rick Smith, Karl Hyde et Darren Emerson. Comment vous situez-vous les uns par rapport aux autres ? Darren Emerson : Rick joue du clavier et passe beaucoup de temps en studio. C'est l'élément moteur du groupe, celui qui nous pousse toujours Ã* aller de l'avant. Rick est aussi celui qui fait tenir les choses ensemble. C'est l'élément pivot autour duquel s'articulent deux conceptions musicales différentes : celle représentée par Karl, qui chante et joue de la guitare et la mienne, issue de mon expérience en tant que DJ. Cette collaboration m'a appris énormément de choses. Sur le premier album, mon intervention se limitait au choix des sons et Ã* la mise en forme générale des morceaux. Désormais, j'interviens également dès le stade de la composition. Nous travaillons d'abord chez nous, car nous avons chacun notre propre studio. Je développe mes intuitions de manière autonome, je programme des boucles et des évolutions de séquences puis j'amène le résultat chez Rick et nous mélangeons nos idées. Je me suis beaucoup plus investi dans la musique que je ne l'étais auparavant. Maintenant, j'ai également mes propres productions, c'est-Ã*-dire qu'en plus des remixes je crée des morceaux totalement issus de mon inspiration. Considères-tu vraiment Underworld comme un groupe? Si tu veux l'appeler comme ça, pourquoi pas ? Nous sommes persuadés que notre collaboration a donné naissance Ã* une musique tout Ã* fait neuve parce qu'elle provient de différentes sources d'inspiration. Moi, par exemple, je suis un pur produit de la musique électronique et du scratching. Je me suis acoquiné avec eux par accident. J'ai rencontré Rick par l'intermédiaire de son beau-frère, parce que je voulais enregistrer dans son studio et que lui désirait travailler avec un DJ. Finalement, nous nous sommes réunis et nous avons fait quelques morceaux sur lesquels Karl est venu ajouter des voix et des guitares. La fusion s'est véritablement opérée Ã* ce moment, mes influences mélangées aux leurs donnaient quelque chose d'exceptionnel : Underworld. Aujourd'hui, si nous disposons chacun de notre home-studio pour développer les bases de notre musique, ça ne nous empêche pas de nous retrouver souvent dans le même studio pour travailler ensemble. A la fin du processus, nous rassemblons toutes nos idées et nous les joignons ensemble. Malgré le succès d'Underworld, tu continues Ã* te produire comme DJ tous les week-ends ? Oui, j'ai toujours été DJ. C'est ainsi que j'ai commencé et je n'ai pas voulu changer cela. Je n'ai jamais cessé de mixer. Même si j'ai beaucoup appris en studio, je reste avant tout un DJ. J'aime assez ne pas toujours donner Ã* entendre le même genre de musique que celle que je fais avec Underworld. Ça me plaît de jouer sur différents registres. Peut-être que des morceaux plus orientés vers la scène club comme le sont ceux qui figurent sur les maxi-singles d'Underworld sont plus marqués par mon style. Mais pour les albums, nous voulons un son différent, avec plus de voix, comme une invitation au voyage. Underworld en concert, c'est encore autre chose... Lorsqu'on t'écoute mixer, on se rend compte que tu ne te focalises pas uniquement sur la techno. En tant que DJ, Ã* quels autres styles es-tu également sensible ? Je joue aussi de la house, mais pas le genre "housy-garagy", pas de "waouw, baby"... Quelque chose qui se rapproche davantage de l'esprit qui règne Ã* Chicago. Curieusement, alors qu'on perçoit une certaine influence du breakbeat dans la musique d'Underworld, tu ne passes pas de morceaux jungle. Tu n'aimes pas ça ? Si, j'aime beaucoup. Pas tellement le bass & drum, plutôt la deep-jungle. Tu vois la différence ? On est beaucoup plus proche de la perception de l'espace. J'ai pas mal de disques jungle, mais je les garde pour les écouter chez moi. Je n'en joue pas comme DJ car je laisse ça aux vrais DJs jungle qui le font mieux que moi. Sur notre second album, il y a quelques morceaux d'inspiration jungle. Ils sont volontairement assez lents, aux alentours de 90 bpm, mais reprennent des jeux de cymbales caractéristiques doublés d'un motif en arrière fond sur un rythme plus trépidant. . Sur scène, Underworld offre un spectacle très intense. On sent vraiment qu'il y a un DJ dans le groupe. Est-ce ta façon d'introduire les rythmes dans la musique qui porte le public au bord de la folie ? Au début, j'utilisais des cassettes sur lesquelles j'avais enregistré les rythmes au préalable. En live, je mixais ces rythmes les uns avec les autres. Ça donnait effectivement l'impression d'entendre un DJ. Mais Ã* présent tout ce que nous faisons sur scène est entièrement joué en direct. Lors de nos derniers concerts, nous nous sommes produits en compagnie d'un DJ : Darren Price. Nous jouions trois ou quatre morceaux puis nous nous retirions ; il mixait et nous revenions sur scène. Ça durait comme ça pendant trois heures environ. Nous ne voulons pas nous enfermer dans une routine, nous cherchons toujours Ã* présenter un spectacle différent dans lequel nous laissons la place Ã* l'improvisation. C'est d'ailleurs très excitant de se retrouver sur scène avec Underworld parce qu'on sait qu'Ã* n'importe quel moment ça peut foirer. Une dernière précision : qui se cache derrière Underwater ? Des amis et parfois nous-mêmes lorsque nous voulons faire des morceaux sous un autre nom. Tu sais qu'il est actuellement très difficile de se procurer les disques d'Underwater ? Oui, ça reste underground pour le moment et nous préférons que cela reste ainsi. Nous ne cherchons pas Ã* en faire la promotion parce que nous voulons que la sauce prenne lentement. Cette musique demande qu'on la laisse vivre toute seule, si elle est assez bonne elle fera son trou. Ce sont des productions qui se rapprochent plus de la deep house techno que de ce qu'on a l'habitude d'entendre de la part d'Underworld. À l'avenir, je pense que nous aurons chacun nos propres productions et que nous nous retrouverons pour produire un disque tous les deux ans environ. DISCOGRAPHIE : 1991 Bigmouth (sous le nom de Lemon Interupt) |
Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
interesting....but no reference to Mother Earth / The Hump....?!?!
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Re: The beginning of UW mkII?
I haven 't a special inoformation about ME , The hump , but as i know it was realeased in 1/1992, but composed before this date, the most important in this interview is that you must know that darren don't composed any track of the dubnobass.. album with carl and rick, he only help them for the choice of the sounds and the mixin of the tracks <Quote>""' Sur le premier album, mon intervention se limitait au choix des sons et Ã* la mise en forme générale des morceaux' ""</Quote>, He said also about his performance in their live acts, and gives somes informatations about the underwater project =)
Ciao P.s: Excuse me for my bad english :mad: |
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i remember reading that darren was rick's brother in law or have i made this up in my own sick mind?
i can also remember reading the hump/m.e. was sold by rick and karl at carboot sales and they practically gave it away. useless trivia! |
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This is new info for me... |
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i can also remember reading the hump/m.e. was sold by rick and karl at carboot sales and they practically gave it away.
Rick did sell it from the boot of his car. Like it said yesterday at UWlive (and some interviews) And I know somebody who bought a whole box of them for the people of a snailmail mailinglist back then. I think to cut distributioncosts, rick was spreading them him self to recordshops in London. I gather that i |
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