Iranian uranium
 

So Iran has "defied the West" and apparently started the process of enriching uranium to 20%. Technically this is still low-enriched, but it could take as little as six months to convert it to weapons grade.

Israel's PM has just said Iran should now face 'crippling sanctions'.

1) Do you believe Iran's claim that it is only pursuing nuclear energy?
2) In your view, are Iran entitled to develop a nuclear weapons program?
3) Would you be willing to live with a nuclear-armed Iran? (Hans Blix says he would)

If diplomacy and sanctions fail, what - if anything - should the rest of the world do about it?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Isreal should face crippling sanctions

1) Do you believe Iran's claim that it is only pursuing nuclear energy?

Why should they have to claim anything?

2) In your view, are Iran entitled to develop a nuclear weapons program?

They are as entitiled as any other country. Any other view is xenophobic.

3) Would you be willing to live with a nuclear-armed Iran? (Hans Blix says he would)

As willing to live with any nuclear-armed country.

If diplomacy and sanctions fail, what - if anything - should the rest of the world do about it?

obliterate the zionists!!!

Re: Iranian uranium
 

No, I don't believe they're only pursuing it for energy. Of course that's not based on any kind of decisive fact, but as far as I can tell, most of the signs are pointing that way.

Are they "entitled" to developing them? I guess technically, I'd have to agree with bas_I_am on this, although I personally think it would be best if the entire planet simply eradicated all nuclear weapons.

And I would be extremely uncomfortable with a nuclear armed Iran. Any country that has expressed a desire to wipe another off the face of the planet is obviously serious cause for concern.

And what should the world do about it? I just don't freakin' know.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

a very considered reply:rolleyes:

Re: Iranian uranium
 

1. I don't believe iran is persuing nuclear energy.....why would they with all that fuckin oil.

2. Who are we (nuclear powers) to say that others can't have them.

3. we will probably have no choice........

If sanctions fail......head for the shelters, as there will more chance of a nuclear war if nutters get the technology

Re: Iranian uranium
 

O.K., yous guys don't watch television enough, everything is all right dammit!

Re: Iranian uranium
 

i feel so much better for that;)

Re: Iranian uranium
 

My own take on this (so far)...

1) Do you believe Iran's claim that it is only pursuing nuclear energy?
I have severe doubts. I think if I was Iran, I'd be pursuing a nuclear deterrent. And fast.

2) Are Iran entitled to develop a nuclear weapons program?
Yes they are.

3) Would you be willing to live with a nuclear-armed Iran?
That's the bottom line. It's all very well acknowledging that Iran has as much right to develop a nuclear weapon as the US or UK or Israel - but should fairness take precedent over safety? I'm seriously freaked by the thought of any theocracy gaining nukes, but especially one that is now a self-admitted 'enemy of the West'. And yes, I accept that being a part of 'the West' myself is bound to colour my opinion.

If diplomacy and sanctions fail, what - if anything - should the rest of the world do about it?
I have a feeling we're a bit fcuked.

If the stand-off escalates into conflict - say 'someone' decides to lob a missile at an installation - then for a start we can look forward to world oil prices tripling. Iran is fortunate to have the Strait of Hormuz, the route of most exported Middle Eastern oil - otherwise known as, the world's balls. I have a fear it would make last year's financial meltdown look like a minor cashflow hiccup.

If things escalate even beyond that, well it doesn't bear thinking about. Iran is no Iraq, for one thing. Perhaps much will depend on the role of China.

Thank goodness we have such a good relationship with them lately. I mean, I don't think I'd be able to sleep at night if we didn't. :)

5 Feb 2010: China to put duties on US chicken imports
4 Feb 2010: China warns against Iran nuclear programme sanctions
2 Feb 2010: China warns Obama not to meet Dalai Lama
30 Jan 2010: China furious at $6.4bn weapons sale to Taiwan
22 Jan 2010: China condemns 'groundless' US criticism of web control
22 Dec 2009: China rejects UK claims it hindered Copenhagen talks

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Protect and Survive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPOo9mRQbTQ

What to do if someone dies in your fallout room:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clKMqphQ67U

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Extremely considered.

We've been to this movie before. . .

If someone were to say 'Obliterate Nazi's!' you wouldn't think twice.

Zionism is evil - the equvalent of Nazism.

Any group that believes their theology affords political gain must be stopped - by any means.

Zionism ≠ Judaism

Unfortunately, to express opposition to Zion, is considered antisemetic. Nothing could be further from the truth.

google:

Irgun
Haganah
King David Hotel
Deir Yassin
Al-Kabri
Kafr Qasim

I could go on and on.

Isreal should be wiped from the map, just as Nazi Germany was.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

O.K., but then the other country obliterating another country then becomes the Nazish type thing they are saying they don't like, no? I mean, I really didn't want to comment on this as I don't truely know the entirety of opposing tensions in this region to make a clear comment.

So there is a crazy right in the area. I'm SHOCKED!!! Are you part of the crazy left in the area? Or more center? Or center-right? Or center-left? Or center-center. Oh just forget it all, wanna smoke a joint and go to an Underworld show? And, I mean, don't look at me I don't have any, but hoping you would or something.




*****

AND, NO, I'M NOT WATCHING NO DAMN LAWRENCE OF ARABIA! Just keep posting the google bit you can go on & on & on about . . .

Re: Iranian uranium
 

No, a people have a right to defend themselves.
And to take up the fight of the oppressed is noble.

See Lawrence Of Arabia and you will understand the issue.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

I am no lover of Israel but words fail me when i read this........you're just as bad as they are.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

what happens to non-zionist israelis?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

maybe they'll get wiped from the map too..............

Re: Iranian uranium
 

I really didn't want to make this a thread about Israel, but I have to pick up on this...

Go on, keep going...

Given the extreme unlikelihood of a voluntary diaspora, what's the furthest you're willing to go to stop the regime/movement? Carpet bombing populated towns and cities? A ground offensive? Nuking the place?

Or was "by any means" just a bit of keyboard warrior rhetoric?

I'm assuming you have no relatives living over there?

Since you accept that Zionism ≠ Judaism, do you also accept that Israeli ≠ Zionist? And if so, how does that sit with your "by any means"?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

"Any means" means "Any Means"
google Dresden

No, I don't. If I did, I would engage them constantly to find out where they stand and compel them to reassess their moral stance.

Many Israeli nationals are arab, many are muslim, many are christian, as well as hebrew. An Israeli national is not necessarily a zionist. Many israeli nationals, of all faiths, are anti-zionist and support repatriation of palestine.

Just as there were many Germans who were not Nazis.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Read the entire sentence. . . and quit drinking the Zionist kool-aid!

The zionists want people to believe when people say "Wipe Israel from the map" it is a call for a holocaust.

"Wipe Israel from the map" . . . REMOVE THE POLITICAL ENTITY THAT IS ISRAEL
"Just as Nazi Germany was" . . . NOWHERE WAS THERE WHOLESALE GENOCIDE OF THE GERMAN PEOPLE!

A map is nothing more than political borders that contain named regions. To "wipe Israel from the map" means, remove the political claim the zionists have made on palestine.

In other words. . .

Destroy the political entity that is Israel just as we destroyed the political entity that was Nazi Germany.

Learn to read.
Learn to think.
Learn to learn.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Oakie-Dokie. We'll just write it off as the crowning jewel in the area of mis-speaking the world has ever seen.

We all feel so much more warm and fuzzier now. I'm gonna put in a smiley too, :). Everyone: Have a Nice Day!

Re: Iranian uranium
 

1) Do you believe Iran's claim that it is only pursuing nuclear energy?

Yes and then they will hand out nuclear energy to all the poor homeless children of the world and everyone will sing songs.


2) In your view, are Iran entitled to develop a nuclear weapons program?

I get the whole post-colonial empathy running around arguing for equal treatment for developing nations. I however think its absurd to apply that template of fairness towards the issue of nuclear weapons. Of course they aren't entitled to nuclear weapons. No one is entitled to nuclear weapons and it makes me uncertain about the wisdom of our species to hear people make playground fairness arguments about something so threatening to our survival.


3) Would you be willing to live with a nuclear-armed Iran? (Hans Blix says he would)

As much as I'm willing to live in a world with Sean Hannity and Sara Palin. I mean are you saying I have options? That's exciting.

4) If diplomacy and sanctions fail, what - if anything - should the rest of the world do about it?

Diplomacy and sanctions *will* fail, and it always amazes me how much we still fawn over sanctions. I'm hard pressed to think of one example where economic sanctions achieved a single stated objective, let alone didn't further embolden and unite the target country against us, handing more power to their despotic regime.

However, there simply is no military solution. Its best for government analysts to start redrawing the risk board where in 30 years even countries like Somalia may be buying their uranium enrichment do it yourself kit. What is that world like? How does a free, democratic country defend itself?
Would there be such a thing as a free, democratic country in such an environment? That's what scares the shit out of me.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Re: Iranian uranium
 

this doesn't sound like destroying the political entity..........
and what's all this nazi comparisons bollocks?

Your emotive language does not convey politics - more like violence

I can read
I can think
I can learn.....but perhaps not from you

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Bas compares Zionist-led Israel to the Nazis. Meanwhile prominent Israelis play the same game as him, likening both Hezbollah and Hamas to the Nazis. Several right-leaning US commentators make similar claims about Islamism representing the new Nazism. Palestinians compare the threat of Zionist Israel to the Nazis. And Ahmedinajad notes the irony of Israel's behaviour to the previous suffering of Jews. So that's helpful. We have everyone likening everyone else to the Nazis. In reality, neither Israel nor their current enemies are particularly comparable to the Nazis. You don't have to be a brainwashed apologist for Zionism to reach that conclusion. A bit of history will do.

We're a bit further along than Dresden, so let's not pretend we're just talking about some jolly old aerial battle. "Any [military] means" nowadays includes rather more. If (hypothetically) a nuke is ultimately the only way to remove 'the Zionist problem' then would you support using it? Yes or no?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Bad phrasing on my part. Equality was the issue I was pursuing. "As entitled as any other nation is (or is not) entitled" is what I meant. (In which case of course your answer may still be no, for other legitimate reasons)

Is "as much" a rhetorical device or do you really feel no more threat from a nuclear-armed Iran than from the existence of Hannity and Palin? (And can I be the first to suggest sanctions in a bid to eradicate the latter two?)


I think you've summed up the dilemma well, and it's scary as hell.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

They are cut from the same cloth.

They are both nationalist terrorists.
They both use religion as their justification.
Look at Zionist history.

One of my first memories of becoming aware of world events was hearing Menachem Begin and Moysha Dayan expressing disgust with terrorism and vowing to defeat it.

It then occurred to me, "Wait as second. . . these guys were of European descent. . . were born of families that came to palestine based on some religious claim. . . displacing (through violence) thousands of people who had been living there for countless generations. . . given right to the land by a bunch of rich white guys (the league of nations) because their skin color was close to their own, and the people living there were dark skinned. . . and the way they gained their power was through, of all things - terrorism: bombing hotel's, raiding settlements, land seizure, mass murder etc. . ."

The Zionists set the example for successful terrorism.

See "Stern Gang"

Re: Iranian uranium
 

you can't say 'obliterate israel in the same way that dresden was bombed', and then backtrack and say that you only mean to do away with the notion of israel as a country etc.

but you're doubtless going to try.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Don't put words in my mouth

Re: Iranian uranium
 

The very notion of an 'Israel' is wrong.

It is the product of Zionism - a european bourne ideology that leverages holocaust guilt in order to subvert and subjugate the land and people of palestine under the guise of legitimacy. Its roots grew from the same racial compost heap that justified Colonialism - a tenet that 'people of color' lack the humanity to control their own destiny. It is as racist as the Ku Klux Klan and as dangerous as the Nazi Party.

Furthermore, it is an insult to the victims of the holocaust as well as the hebrew religion.

Obliterate (remove, erase, excise) the Zionists (and Zionism)! ( that is what I said!!! ) Again, if I said "Remove the Nazi's!!! Erase the KKK!!!" you would be cheering "huzzah!!!"

The political state that is Isreal should,and must, be removed, just as was Nazi Germany. By any means necessary. I used Dresden as a reference because there should be no limit to our resolve to overcome evil.

It has never been in the past.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

so bas, being as this was an iran thread rather than an israel thread, what is your considered opinion of the regime in iran and its suppression of the opposition and control of press/tv/etc? we already know about how bad israel can be...............

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Its wrong. And needs to be obliterated.

It uses Zionism, just as the Zionist's use the holocaust. A means to justify evil.

I contend, Zionism is the greater evil.

I will give you a few minutes to contemplate the last statement.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

i stand by my paraphrasing - you suggest using 'any means necessary' to obliterate israel, and then say 'google dresden' when asked what the first statement entails.

what else am i to take away from that?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

carpet bombing with incendaries?

well it would sure obliterate them............:eek:

Re: Iranian uranium
 

I don't think either needs to be 'obliterated' however you choose to interpret the word. There are more subtler methods required to ensure there is eventually some sort of non-war settlement in the region. i don't need 'a few minutes to contemplate the last statement' to know that this isn't a pissing game to see who is the most 'evil' - a word you seem to use rather a lot. The whole situation needs very careful approaches to ensure that there is no further deterioration in relations between all the interested parties. There is too much at stake to be bandying round words such as obliteration.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

lol what a crock...who let the extremists in?

Re: Iranian uranium
 

um. guys I don't know if you've noticed but our bas_i_am is slight unhinged. you're wasting your time.

bas_i_am, fyi, you aren't fooling anyone making incindiary comments and then claiming that they mean something else when anyone challenges you. Its clear what you mean.

I'm no zionist, but you're being creepy.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

and please stop drawing nazi and/or holocaust comparisons. they are totally inappropriate. kthxbye.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

amen!

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Absolutely not.

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Even back in Nazi Germany, the Zionists used Nazism as a means of achieving their own objectives, regardless of the cost in lives of their "less fortunate" Jewish brethren. In many cases, they continued to do business with the Nazis, and even made deals with them which cost many thousands of Jewish lives, to enrich the Jewish elite. And, contrary to all of the propaganda, the model for Israel is closer to Nazism than it is to democracy.

Evil by any other name, is evil.

Tony Greenstein wrote: "As a self-styled `national' movement, Zionism claims to represent all Jews, irrespective of their wishes and wherever they live. Support for the Palestinian national struggle and opposition to Zionism, and its concept of a `Jewish people,' is interpreted as hatred of Jews as Jews, i.e. anti-Semitism. Jewish anti-Zionists are dismissed as `self-haters'". Greenstein observes, "It is a conjuring trick which has mesmerized many an audience, but as with all such illusions has gradually lost its effectiveness. The problem for the Zionist movement is whether the equation of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism can still be useful in intimidating its opponents". The Holocaust itself is used to intimidate opponents to the evil Zionist global agenda, and to silence any opposition to the injustices, oppression, and abuses perpetrated by Israel and the Jews. In the typical modus operandi of evil, the truth is reversed or selectively applied to support further evil.

Israel is the pre-eminent racist, religionist, separatist, apartheid state in the world. By acts of terrorism, massacre, and forcible relocation, it removed hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people from their towns and their land, and denied them any right of return. Whatever villages, towns, homes, farms, and other properties were considered useful were taken over by Jews; everything else was bulldozed and destroyed, all with the US's support and sanction.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

Re: Iranian uranium
 

Eikman. . . are you a zionist?