is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I find the pro-life position prioritizes the more fundamental right of life (as opposed to the less fundamental right to end a life) and gay rights support the equally important pursuit of happiness. I guess I'm pro-life and pro-gay rights, then.

I'm not a big fan of government deeming anything to be "marriage" and consequently giving partial treatment to those who are married, but whatever...

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I find the term pro-life to be very deceptive. everyone is pro life. everyone loves life. just depends on how far you want to go. they need a new term.

I think its sad now that when I think of pro-life I think of people who murder doctors. Hardly pro-life is it.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Exactly. Define pro-life, Bryant and i'll see if I fit the bill

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

As well as (-098)?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I'm gonna stir it up here by saying that it is very easy for a guy to be pro-life.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Before I even think of responding to that comment I would like to see you elaborate so I know what points you are trying to touch on.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

i think that can be boiled down to the famous production called "THE DUDE AND THE UTERUS." it's been playing out since, oh, forever. it's an intriguing salad of power struggles, violence, and hilarious misunderstandings.

the continuing attempt to control the body through legislation/morality/shame, where the players involved seem far from coincidental, and thus can only be interpreted as socially and conceptually oppressive..

and so on.
basically, its not "the right to take a life", it's much more about the right to manage ones own body.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Good Luck there.

And don't get all panties tied in a knot on me, dubman, it's in general.

Please tell me you're not gay, I REALLY hope you procreate. :p However "stupid boy" you can be sometimes.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

my sentiments exactly.

Also its funny how many blokes are 'pro-life'

Instead of 'pro-life' Bryant, wouldn't you be better off describing yourself as Anti-abortion?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

No contradiction there, but obviously a lot of pro-lifers' opposition to gay rights tends to result from the common factor of the Bible and more specifically how they choose to interpret it. But that got me thinking: I wonder which is more uncommon amongst self-described conservatives: being anti-gay rights or anti-abortion?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Anyway I'm very much anti-life. In fact when I go out for a hike, and I'm in the mountains surrounded by nature I get really mean and say "god i hate all this fucking life everywhere."

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

i see myself as pro-life in that i do not believe abortion should be allowed unless the mother's life is in danger. i believe that adoption should be the policy, because once conception occurs, the child is a seperate entity and 'aborting' them is no different than killing a newborn. on the same token, i believe that killing others is wrong and do not believe abortion clinics should be bombed, and i believe the death penalty should be abolished.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

if i ever got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, i would have to commit to her and the kid as if i were having the child myself or i would be just as guilty as a woman having an abortion. although i could never hold the amount of responsibility of a pregnant woman, i would have to remember that the child is 100% my responsibility as well as 100% hers and treat it as such. people who get women pregnant and run off are as guilty or more because they leave the woman alone to raise the child and push them towards the decision.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

true. at the same time you could also say it can be very easy for a guy to be pro-choice. depending on what he did last night.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

anti-abortion, yes. and i can think of a number of more accurate ways to describe the position:

anti-choice, anti-individual rights, anti-women's health rights, pro-government intrusion, pro-government legislation over individual bodies, pro-revokation of individual civil rights, pro-punishment for reproductive females

etc etc

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

not even a whisper of a dream of a fantasy of the amount of responsibility of the pregnant woman.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I agree 100% with everything you've said here. Buuuuuuut, as history has always shown and I don't see it changing anytime soon, it's more common than not many males do not hold up to this side of the bargin.



And kudos to you in your way of responsible thinking, you should make every effort to preach this to as many of your fellow male friends as possible. Not that I can tell the future or anything, but I kinda see you as being one of those guys who, after getting married, has a grand litter(+) of kids. Kinda in-the-closest horny kinda guy. Not gay in the closest either.


See:

I prove another point, yet again. Comparing a match to a torch goofy boy.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

all of these things are not what my position (i don't know about others) stands for. i believe a woman has as much right as a man to do anything with her body that she wishes. however, once a child is conceived, i believe, and it is hard to disprove, that a child is alive and no longer part of the individual such as oocytes or semen. indeed, the child still depends on the mother for a nurturing environment in the womb and nutrition, but a newborn child does as well, and cannot survive on its own. arguing that a week old child is not a person vs. a newborn child is almost the same comparison as arguing that a newborn child is not a person vs. an adult.

so, to me, it's not about removing 'women's rights', it's about protecting the right of an individual to live who cannot stand up for her/his self. if it were in any way possible to safely 'adopt' a child still in the womb to another woman, i would support that procedure.

i do believe that a woman has a right to prevent herself from becoming pregnant if she wishes, via condoms, foam, diaphragms, etc.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

kinda want to make fun of this but then i'd sound like John Rodriguez.
oh no.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

now see, this is all what you want to do and see enacted because you believe in it.
regardless of the people who actually have to worry about this.

that's a lot of the issue right there. it's all the things cacophony said by virtue of turning it into a political issue, which was a fucking stupid idea in the first place.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

damn those women who don't exercise their right to prevent themselves from being impregnated during rape or abuse. DAMN THEM TO HELL.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

But not the boys who refuse to wear a condom in the name of love or saying it's against they're religion. Because, ya know, they're just being boys.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

let me clarify my point.

at week 20 of a high risk pregnancy, my husband was diagnosed with gestational hypertension. at week 25 his kidneys began to shut down and he was put on medication to control the raised blood pressure in the hopes of saving both his kidneys and his babies. at week 30 his pressure began to rise again and his risk of stroke increased significantly. his medication, which is not fully tested on the effects on fetuses, was increased. at week 33 while doing an audible non-stress test he heard the sound of one of the babies' heartbeats slow, then stop, then start again. that's when he received the news that the hypertension, which could quite possibly kill him, might be destroying the babies' shared placenta. he was rushed to the hospital where he tested positive for preeclampsia, a potentially fatal condition brought on by pregnancy. he was then pumped so full of magnesium sulfate that he was barely coherent, and he had two shots of steroids in his hips to help develop the premature babies' lungs. see, this happened because there was a very clear set of options: carry the babies to term and have a nearly guaranteed date with seizures and liver failure, or deliver two premature babies at 33 1/2 weeks in the hopes that they could survive without encountering one of a dozen life threatening conditions that are part and parcel of arriving almost 2 months early. and when they were delivered, he didn't get to hold them. they were taken away to the neonatal intensive care unit and he was kept bedridden for the next 24 hours, unable to see his babies while the preeclampsia was closely monitored. during this time his liver very nearly shut down.

no wait. that didn't happen to my husband. that happened to me. because i'm a woman and between the two of us i'm the only one with the physical ability to carry a baby and nearly die in the process.

so no, you don't carry a whisper of a dream of a fantasy of the responsibility of pregnancy that a woman carries.

and when you preach your noble stance on men sharing the burden of pregnancy i have to roll my eyes. because good for you, buddy. you be noble and stand there while the woman in your life submits her body either willingly or unwillingly to something that will change her forever. you preach your philosophy about life and the dependency of an embryo on its mother's environment and you make it a political or moral thing. because it's easy, for you. you're never ever EVER going to face the decision or the responsibility or the risk or the consequences a woman will face. bearing the emotional and financial burden are great, both parents do that. but only she bears the physical burden.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

WHOOOPLIIISHHHHH!

Fuck'im up Ma!!!! :D, :D.

Can I have more chocolate milk?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

now if you'll excuse me, i have to head back upstairs. the one on the left won't stay asleep. :rolleyes:

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

...

was just gonna make fun of the wording
something like 'notion of a concept of a sparkle of a dust mote of a glint of a tremulous utterance of a-"

and so on.

..

then of course about how having kids is way easy for guys like me we just have to concentrate on our gut real hard.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I warned you. :p

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

i didn't mean to upset you by what i said. i'm sorry, and what you say is true; i could never have that much responsibility (and i'm not just saying that because you probably know where i live ;) ). on the same note, i think abortion is permissible if your health is in danger; which it was. if it comes down to preserving a person that's already fully developed or preserving a child that may well die with the mother, realistically, it would be unreasonable to restrict a woman to have an abortion.

my idea of limiting abortion isn't a federally mandated law that says almost all abortions are illegal and having some huge legal counsel decide which abortion is OK.

my idea is more along the lines of a federal law that protects some abortion rights, and only restricting partial-birth abortion, and the states would go on a state-by-state basis. for example, all states would have to respect the right of a mother to have an abortion if her life was in danger, if she was raped, or if a family member raped her, yet from that point on it would be the individual state's decision to make abortion illegal or legal. so a state with people who largely support abortion rights, such as nevada, would have abortion legal. on the other hand, utah would probably make most abortions illegal. at that point i think it would be up to the doctor to decide whether to carry out an abortion or not rather than bring it before a judge and have to go through a legal proceeding. the penalty for performing abortions illegally would be up to the states, but i wouldn't favor any laws punishing women for having an abortion.

once again, i didn't mean for the discussion to get that personal and heartwrenching— you proved your point very well.

the ideal system, to me, would be to make abortion less common, more difficult to have done, and to make other options much more available, but not to entirely ban abortion from the country if it's truly needed in a case. the libertarian in me wouldn't let that happen. i'm upset enough about obama banning flavored cigarettes in the name of stopping teens from smoking.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

in the end it should be the woman's choice about abortion, not a judge's, not a politician's, not a priest's, maybe a doctor if there are complications......and not a bryant either.............i guess that makes me pro-choice. an aggregation of a few non-differentiated cells is not a person.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

ahhhhhh but think about this. in my case it was week 20 when i developed gestational hypertension. abortions are only legal to week 24. and personally i don't support abortion rights after week 24 because at that point viability is absolutely plausible.

understand i'm not trying to make it all about me. what i'm trying to do is illustrate how a lofty moral stance affects individuals. because at the end of the day you're talking about individual lives.

one of the things that i always find striking about the anti-choice argument is that you guys all seem to think every pregnancy is normal and every baby is born healthy. well yeah, if a pregnancy is totally normal and the mother has no complications during delivery and no health complications following pregnancy and the baby is born with stellar APGAR scores, then sure it's a great idea that all women should be forced to carry every pregnancy and all babies will be adopted.

but the reality is pregnancy isn't a cute little baby bump that pops out a rolly polly bouncing baby without risk. and many times the risk to the mother's health doesn't manifest until she's going into delivery and suddenly she's hemmoraging and balancing on a razor's edge between life and death. what you're proposing is that women, and only women by necessity of nature, should bear the burden and risk of that mistake, and trying to make it all shiny and happy by lobbing out a noble statement about how men should be held accountable.

here's the point i'm trying to make: in my case i'm married, in my 30s, prepared for the responsibility and risk of pregnancy. i encountered some not uncommon health issues that not only threatened my life and put my babies' long term health at risk, but i'm also one of the lucky portion of women who get to keep their gestational hypertension post-pregnancy as a bonus prize. which means just the very act of getting pregnant resulted in a series of health events that very nearly GUARANTEES my death will be from cardiac arrest or stroke. lucky me. my husband? his health status is exactly the same as the day we conceived. i am, by necessity of nature, the only one who has to pop a pill every morning FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE in the hopes of staving off the inevitable burst blood vessel in my brain that will ultimately end my life. i say this partially to give you a little shake by the lapels because i don't think you've ever dreamed in your wildest fantasy that these things happen, but also to set up a hypothetical:

let's imagine a girl who accidentally gets pregnant in your ideal world, where women are forced to carry pregnancies unless her life is in danger. let's call her mary. mary is a recent college grad in a bad economy who can't find work in her field. as a result she takes a job as a waitress at TGI Fridays. part time, no health insurance. she starts dating another server at that same establishment, let's call him matt. neither one has insurance. they're careful about birth control but after several months of dating one slips past the goalie and she finds herself staring at a pink plus sign on a pregnancy dipstick.

now, as noble as matt may be, bearing "equal" responsibility for this pregnancy doesn't get her even one step closer to health insurance. still, they scrimp and pinch and get her to her first OB GYN appointment to make sure things are normal. by the way, this first OB GYN appointment costs $500 for the uninsured. That gets her a blood test to confirm the pregnancy, some lab tests to make sure hormonal levels are healthy, and a consultation with a doctor. this doesn't afford an ultrasound to confirm the implanted embryo but let's pretend they're willing to throw that in.

first ultrasound at 8 weeks: whaddya know, there are two babies in there. still no health insurance. oh and by the way, these twins are identical so she's only got one placenta. which takes her from a "high risk" category to a "very high risk" category. she's now obligated to monitor her health and the babies' health very closely, which translates to bi-weekly ultrasounds with a perinatal specialist, alternating with bi-weekly visits to the OB GYN. if it was $500 for that first consult, how much do you think they're now having to afford for these visits? we're talking thousands and thousands of dollars before she even hits viability at 24 weeks.

now let's give her my health complications. gestational hypertension, which equals extra monitoring. at 24 weeks she starts going to the perinatal specialist every single week. and she sees her OB GYN every single week. which means she's shelling out hundreds of dollars on tuesday and hundreds of dollars on thursday. oh, and by the way, she's been forced onto bed rest because of the hypertension and risk of premature delivery. so no more waitressing at TGI fridays, which means they're down to matt's meager income.

let's also give her my delivery story. she's rushed to the hospital a month and a half prematurely and she spends a week bedridden, hooked up to monitors. finally when she's informed that she may start seizing and her liver is on the verge of failure they admit her for an emergency c-section. she's also received two very expensive shots of steroids to help develop the babies' lungs at this point. they rush her into the OR where the standard double surgical team is standing by to deliver. there is literally twice the staff in this delivery room, standing by to receive two premature babies.

what do you think that costs?

the babies are lucky, they get good APGAR scores, but because they arrived on planet earth before 35 weeks they're rushed to the NICU. they're too little to have the jaw strength to eat so they have to be tube fed for several days before they learn to successfully drink from a bottle. 13 days in NICU for baby A, 18 days in NICU for baby B.

how much do you think that costs?

i'll tell you. the NICU alone, which ended up providing little more than warmth and feeding assistance (so no extra surgeries or equipment needed) costs $250,000. read that number carefully. the NICU alone costs a quarter of a million dollars. add in all of the prenatal care costs, the hospital expenses, the surgery expenses, and you've got a total bill for this one pregnancy of nearly half a million dollars. yeah. half a million for one pregnancy.

now. mary and matt didn't want this pregnancy. they were forced by law to carry it to term (or as close as they could get). who bears the burden of the expense? even if they could afford it, why should they? why should they be forced by law to bear the physical burden and the health risks as well as the financial ruin? do we put the half million tab on the taxpayers? does the hospital have to eat the cost?

i ask you this because too often the "pro lifers" want to paint the pretty picture of healthy pregnancies and adopted children. but realistically there are very ugly, dirty details to be managed. who pays for the unwanted pregnancies?

and beyond that, let's say these babies weren't so lucky. they could have easily been born with retinal malformation which can result in blindness. they could have been born with fluid on the brain which eats away at brain tissue, resulting in retardation. they could have been born with necrotizing enterocolitis, which means extended NICU stays and multiple surgeries.

who is adopting these babies?

if the mom is forced to carry her unwanted pregnancy to term and gives up her right of custody at birth, who cares for these babies in NICU? and where are the adoptive parents who want to sweep in and sit for hours on end at their babies' incubator, praying for a miracle to heal them? assuming they survive their health complications, who is waiting to adopt the poor baby with cerebral palsy resulting from birth complications? who's waiting to adopt the baby with down syndrome?

where are these legions of adoptive parents, willing to take on the children of complicated pregnancies and deliveries? have you signed up to be an adoptive parent yet?

the anti-abortion movement can come up with all kinds of good reasons why abortion should be outlawed in a just and healthy world. but the world isn't just, and not all women or babies are healthy. and not once in my entire life has a so-called "pro lifer" addressed the grim reality of what they're wishing on the rest of us.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

See, kids, excellant use of comic relief right here. You're getting a star for that one.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Abortion is a health procedure, no doubt, and the health of the mother takes precedent over the health of the fetus, but some contemporary adults turn to abortion as a procedure of convenience when other viable options are available. I would like to see a run-down of the contextual numbers surrounding abortion, but I would probably be disappointed with how many abortions could have been avoided with abstinence (when two people could be doing something more productive than mating in the first place ie 16 year olds having unprotected sex at prom) or birth control, and even adoption.

No woman should have to bear a fetus that was forcefully brought into being inside of her womb by an overpowering male or end her own life in a facet of biology designed to create more life, but I find it more cautious to presume the fetus an actual lifeform whose life should not be terminated more often than not. The fact that these catch 22 situations can arise for a woman by the crime of a man is further justification, personally, for the extreme severity of rape as a crime. When individuals fuck around doing stupid shit with their own bodies on the day to day, that is just fine. To be wreckless in the babymaking ballpark, though, is a whole different story... I wish people realized that sex is more serious than their hormones would have them believe.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

there are many many many children born with defects such as mental retardation, autism, etc. everyday. the fact of the matter is most of the time they don't know it until the baby is born, or even months after. i fail to see how that relates to abortion.

once again, i don't think abortion should be entirely unavailable— it will be up to the states. if the family doesn't think they can take the financial strain, go get an abortion a couple of states over. although i may not agree with their decision, if their state has made abortion illegal, they have made many people think twice about having an abortion because it is much more difficult. having abortion entirely outlawed would lead to abortions happening in alleyways (so to speak), which doesn't reduce the number of abortions and increases the number of mortalities, putting the women in danger. the goal is not to supress people's rights or to make it underground, the goal is to lower the number of abortions that occur.

in addition, mary and matt can apply for medicaid if they can't afford health insurance. if they can afford health insurance, in a year or so they can apply for the new health insurance program that obama is putting in place, that will include benefits for pregnant women. although you paint a very bleak picture, abortion is not the only option in their case, and birth defects still happen whether abortion is legal or not. i'm not trying to hold a 'lofty moral stance', i'm trying to put forth a proposition that both retains the rights of the individual while greatly reducing the number of abortions in this country.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

seriously, that is a laughably inadequate response the very specific situation i proposed.

you're living in fantasytown. let me know if you want to talk about the real world and answers to very real world scenarios. i'll be sitting over here with the rest of the rational adults. :rolleyes:

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

and that's my point. you "wish" the real world wasn't the real world.

you can't discuss abortion in the context of an ideal world. not when you're talking about revoking civil liberties in the real world.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Edumacation of the average person works for making ideals a reality...

A 'real world answer' is dependent on whether or not your, or our hypothetical person's, problem could have been pre-screened or screened early into pregnancy. Were you trying to have kids? I missed that. I was giving my ideals because that's the nature of this topic... I wasn't answering anyone. If I was responding to a specific post I would have quoted it.

I guess rational individuals make assumptions about sensitive topics, so I must not be rational. The only thing my post was trying to get at was that abortion is unfortunate but sometimes necessary, and can (and should be) avoided more than it already is.

BUT because you assumed I was talking to you, I might as well give you the response I am capable of giving now.

One point I disagree with you on is the couples' "accidental" pregnancy. There is no such thing as an accidental pregnancy. That's like staying awake for 3 days on end and 'accidentally' falling asleep in the middle of a movie. I think you mean 'unintended'. Accident is a term that puts responsibility on some other entity other than those affected. Sex can not happen accidentally. If you're tasting the fruit, you have to take care of the seeds...

In this case, I believe our character is going to die directly from pregnancy, which makes abortion slightly more reasoned in this case. Its a priority to keep functional adults alive. If the issue were solely monetary, an abortion would end two lives because she didn't take into consideration all the possible scenarios that could arise when little matt was going to town on her cat. If they're too poor to take care of the babies they might create by fornicating, they shouldn't be fornicating.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

well, i'm sorry you think the system i proposed is inadequate. it's obvious that we both have strong opinions but i don't think either of our opinions are irrational, but well-thought and meaningful opinions. i think we should agree to disagree. still friends?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I think you're being a bit nit picky. "Accidental" here was used in the context pertaining to "unintended".

I'm REALLY holding back on the whole "if they're too poor to take care of the babies they might create by fornicating, they shouldn't be fornicating", just to avoid going off into MY style of different arguemental tangents. I really do get where you're coming from though.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Well, i'm sorry that you think it necessary to start a thread, encourage discussion and then edit your original post until it just says "?". If you start a discussion, you should expect it to heat up a bit. Please don't feel as if you need to back down or run away just because everyone doesn't whole heartedly agree with you. Maybe they have rational and logical reasons for their beliefs, even if they are the opposite of yours. Keep em coming bryantm3 :)