Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

so far no one has advocated a mindless implementation of universal healthcare, any of the candidates' specific plans, or cited any country's existing system as the end-all and be-all. personally i find clinton's plan to be near disastrous.

i think it has to be implemented carefully for the exact reasons you cited. however, we also have to be careful not to make perfect the enemy of good. if all we did was start by implementing universal healthcare for minors, that would be an incredible start.

the fact is, no government program is going to be better than the best of what individualized healthcare COULD provide if enough money were thown at a policy. unfortunately putting it in the hands of the government inevitably means lowering the bar across the board because you have to establish a minimum of care. and once you establish a minimum of care, that minimum becomes your goalpost, not your fail point. it's just how government programs work.

but if there were a safety net of government care, i guarantee companies like aetna and blue cross and humana would offer "better" coverage for competitive premiums. these companies aren't going to quietly go out of business, they will seek ways to continue to bring in revenue through supplemental or superior service. i'm talking about a scenario where health insurance is taken out of the hands of employers, who have to buy bulk packages and individual consumer pressure never comes into play.

that's how you end up with true market competition. right now there is virtually no competition at all. having been through two layoffs and having to switch employer-based insurance several times, i can confidently say that the only competitive difference among all of the existing programs offered by all of the existing companies are in their useless add-ons. like your actual necessary coverage is no different, but one will offer you a 1-800 number to call for tips on how to deal with stress. and another one will email you to remind you to get a mammogram. and another will give you a discount on a gym membership. not actual health coverage.

inject true competition into the system by creating a universal safety net and create a market space for individual insurance providers to exceed the minimum and offer superior service at competitive rates.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

What sort of profits do these private insurance companies make i wonder?

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

very well put. agreement all over the place.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

I agree entirely with Cacophony's post too.

The best health system I have come across is the French one. There is a sliding scale of "universal" healthcare where those out of work/retired etc have 100% cover, and those in work, depending on their income, have to contribute 10%, 20% and so forth (I can't remember the actual figures).

So what salaried people tend to do is take out a "complementary" insurance policy to cover the shortfall, which costs a relatively small amount per month in comparison to full cover. You pay your doctor with a cheque, you send off your form to the national health service and the insurance company, and by the time your cheque has cleared at the bank, they have transferred the money directly into your account. Ditto for hospital bills.

OK, sometimes there can be a day or two delay in getting your money back, but generally speaking you are rarely out of pocket for any length of time.

What is also good about this system is that, unlike the UK where you are registered with a doctor and, unless he or she actually sticks needles unnecessarily in your eyeballs, it is virtually impossible to change to another one irrespective of how crap/incompetent/rude they are, in France you are the consumer - you pay (even if it is reimbursed) so you get to choose who you want to see. And you don't need a referral from a general practitioner to see a specialist either. If you need a dermatologist/ob-gyn or whatever, you phone directly to make an appointment.

This, imo, increases the effectiveness of the medical system because doctors cannot afford to be lackadaisical or incompetent, otherwise they end up with no patients.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

One thing I haven't pointed out is the constitutional illegality of Universal Healthcare, not that I am a Republican and advocate their government-expansion policies.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

you're going to have to expand on that.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

A lot of what Republicans and Democrats have been proposing and putting into practice over the last century and a half has not been in accordance with the Constitution that outlines what the Federal Government is capable of doing. Granted the Constitution does not outline what the Federal Government can not do, powers not given to the Federal Government can be legitimately carried out by the States.

Like, for example, a lot of people believe the First Amendment says that no government at any level can incorporate religion into its policies and et cetera. In actuality, the First Amendment says the Federal Government can not rule on the legality of the religious incorporation that states choose or choose not to follow. Crazy, right?

So, in essence, if there is to be universal healthcare it will have to (legally) exist and be executed on the state-level which would work more efficiently because of the smaller scale of policy and the increased input of the people via proposals. Obviously there is no room for federal proposals, so we have old men who have not worked a day in their life make our policies after being bribed by special interests :)

This is just an example of why I appreciate state power as opposed to federal power because the states are more in touch with the needs of their specific citizens and, as evidenced by the totalitarian nature of increasing central power that we can see throughout history...

I could go on for pages about why the Federal Governments should be fixed in size while the states should fluctuate according to the opinion of state citizens, but there you go, Universal Healthcare at the Federal level would be illegal, unless you were to make an amendment for it.

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

personally i find it odd to put bureaucratic technicalities ahead of empathy for your fellow human beings, but that's just the bleeding heart liberal in me.

i'm not going to debate the whole "what did the framers of the constitution really mean" issue. creating an amendment to cover the technicality is just a blip in the process that a motivated executive and legislative branch wouldn't blink at (and historically have not). and then ultimately it's up to the supreme court to decide if challenged. seeing as they haven't rejected other "universal" national programs, i don't see something like that overturning on a technicality.

so let me ask you this. if "universal" healthcare were adopted at the state level in all 50 states, no federal government involvement, would you still oppose it?

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

I would oppose it in my state, by voting against it unless it addressed my concerns about support self-destructive behaviour, but I wouldn't be offended if other states were under the system.

I still believe that smoking, drinking, and no-seatbelt et cetera cases should have to pay using private coverage or funds...

Re: Another one o' them smoking ban threads....
 

Okay, noone wants to be the hothead, and I hadn't wanted to either, but my week was just shit, and, well, it might as well be me.

IsiliRunite, what kind of weird, twisted, fucked up world do you plan on living in, where every single activity is scrutinized when we're tallying up the bill? Ever think that, perhaps, the stress and fear caused by an emergency room visit might be enough suffering to heap onto someone? Ever think that, maybe, just maybe, having to deal with a debilitating illness or disease might be enough of a wakeup call for someone to start living healthier, or maybe not taking some chances, and maybe we don't need to stick them with the entire tab for choices they may have made years and years ago?

It's part of life, and it's part being an evolved organism, to take care of people that need it, even if they may have done something a little reckless, a little inadvisable, or just plain stupid. Your "make stupid people pay for their mistakes," is so fucking callous and narrow minded that you'd have to parrot it in front of a mirror for a week just to start believing the shit. For example:

I smoke. A lot. All day long. Sometimes, within ten feet of an oxy-acetylene cutting torch. You know why? Because I've been spending the last 5 weeks on the Syrian border, where packs of wild dogs bark in my ear all night, I routinely stay up way past 3:30am (due to work or insomnia). I spend 7-13 hours in a cramped, armor-plated, poorly-cooled truck to travel 50 miles, so I can spend 4 days or so sleeping under the stars on an uncomfortable metal and canvas cot, not showering, and eating something unidentifiable out of a cardboard box. And if you still can't understand why I might engage in "risky behavior" like smoking, I do all of this ten thousand miles away from my friends, family, and fiancee. My battalion is run by nitwits. I have to try to keep gear up and running with spit and duct tape. It's rapidly approaching 120 degrees F in the shade. If I don't get this little "coffin nail," or "cowboy killer," or "cancer stick," I might just go kinetic on something (or someone). There's no psychiatrist to talk to out here, so that I can get something off of my chest. Within the Marines, a pep talk is, "Suck it the fuck up." There's no chaplain here that I can bare my soul to and have a good cry. But I have cigarettes, and goddamn it, they do the job. They smell and taste like shit. They make me feel like hell in the morning, and I know I'm just tarring the hell out of my lungs. And you're going to tell me that if I develop lung cancer in 15 or 20 years, YOU think I should have to pay for all of my treatments?

You can take that idea and cram it up your ass.

The truth of the matter is, I only smoke when I'm deployed. It cures boredom and anxiety, and it helps me stay awake when I need to. When I get home, I stop, because I don't need it anymore. I have the most incredible and gorgeous woman in the world when I'm home. I have the ocean. I have a queen sized bed, and a 42 inch TV in my bedroom. I have much easier access to porn. The problem is, I've already made my toss at the genetic roulette table, and it might come back to bite me in the ass someday. I'm comfortable with that. What I'm not comfortable with is some dipshit, self-centered philosophy that excludes you from participating in the rest of society. I gave 5 years of my life to the American people, and I did it as well as I could. As far as I'm concerned, you IsiliRunite, owe me.

Not to mention the hundreds and thousands of guys out there who are fucked up for life because they participated in our society, while you were researching the constitutionality of universal healthcare. You have any idea what 2 155mm South African artillery shells, together with a bottle of acetylene and a can of gas does to a humvee, even an uparmored one? Care to take a guess at what it does to a human body? Ever picked up body parts and brought them back to their previous owners after they and their comrades were mortared? If you have, then you might understand why someone might need a drink from time to time...or ten...or as many as it takes to become emotionally numb, so you can at least leave the house. Hundreds and thousands of people are in our country right now, who have to get so drunk, so stoned, all the time, just so they can fall asleep. They're so fucked up that they can't hold jobs. They have no income. And if one of them needs hospital attention because they decided to try to kill themselves, YOU'RE comfortable with making them foot the bill.

I wish I could be as eloquent as our dirtymama here (congratulations on twin boys, cacophony), and I wish I didn't have to swear so much to get my point across. I've had about 4 and a half hours of sleep, and I suppose my temper isn't what it could be. But I just thought I needed to get another point across.

That being said, get some fucking perspective in your life, man.