Re: Crunch
 

Vote is going on now in Senate. I'm watching on CSpan online. Obama, Biden and McCain all voted 'yes'. Passed 74 - 25.

Jason

Re: Crunch
 

Well, if McCain voted, wouldn't that count for more than the other senator's votes. I mean, he is the one who is going to fix this thing isn't he?

He does have like 9 houses and 13 cars. Plus his wife's dress at the RNC cost almost as much a the president's yearly salary. Yeah, old gramps McCain's vote should count more because he's got more "invested" in the market than 90% of America.

If he votes yes, then it should be a done deal. Too bad Palin can't vote in this. It's not cause she's the Gov. of Alaska. It's because she can't spell vote.

Seriously, I hope this does pass though. I'm stoked that the taxes taken out of my hard earned check can bailout a bunch of Wall Street Suits. I mean, I didn't need that money to care for my sick child or anything.
And don't worry Wall Street. I'm getting a good raise soon, so you'll have extra from me when you fuck up again next year!

Cheers!

Re: Crunch
 

Holy shit.

Stewart was pissed last night.

Kill Bill Vol 1.

"Listen up Congress, get the fuck back to work!"

hahaha

Re: Crunch
 

Come on, I'm bored.

Great Link. I'm totally bored again.

Re: Crunch
 

take a moment to just think about this statement and the arena in which it was posted.


Do you see the ridiculousness yet??? (not trying to be condescending, really. . . .)


Ok. . here it is:

This is a forum dedicated to Underworld. A group of commercial artists that use technology developed through global capitalism. Who have a commercial art enterprise called Tomato that makes a shitload* of money creating promotional material for global capitalists.

If it wasn't for global capitalism there would be no underworld.
We wouldn't be here discussing this.

Global Capitalism is great. Unfortunately it only takes a few obnoxious drunks to ruin the party for everyone, but we have to keep the party going. Problem is, the bouncers have been rolling with the club kids and have shirked their responsibilites. We cant shut the party down, we need new bouncers.


*shitload used loosely here

Re: Crunch
 

So because i am against global capitalism then i'm ridiculous????? you and your ilk are waaay too smug and think that the making of money is everything.......well it fuckin isn't.

As for the second part, if there were no global capitalism underworld would still exist but in a different form and the world's poor wouldn't have been exploited to the fuckin hilt by you (and my) countries greedy corporate bastards....... if that's ridiculous in your view then i feel sorry for you. take off your blinkers and see the real mess the world is in......

Re: Crunch
 

No... you're ridiculous 'cause you cant fucking read that I said the statement was ridiculous.

No it's not everything. It's a means to an end.

Putting my daughter through college.
Paying for my interferon/ribavirin cocktail
That's important.

Talk about fucking smug, you should be ashamed of yourself!

This may be true, but they wouldn't have piece of crap macs to make their music on.
They wouldn't have planes to tour with.
They wouldn't have hotels to stay in.
They wouldn't have festivals to play at.
We'd be using smoke signals to say this to each other.

The poor would be exploited despite the economic system as the evil greed would just find different ways to do it. The problem is greed not capitalism.

Don't be alarmed by the loud pop. . .
its just your head. . .
Coming out of your ass

Re: Crunch
 

I'm with Bas on this. Just because people are taking advantage of the system doesn't mean the system itself is to blame. We have capitalism to thank for our way of life and standard of living (even though obviously these have their dark sides as well). The problem is that governments are trying to protect special interests and their big-money friends, thus undermining the system.

Governments bailing out failing companies are essentially saying "hey it's ok to fuck up. As long as you're "important" enough we'll just use the taxpayers money to help you out". That's not a fair and free market, nor is it capitalism.

Re: Crunch
 

bas_i_am, I actually agree more with you on this too. But you've been nasty about two things I love: Macs, and Rog (in the platonic sense, Rog ;) ). So I'm gonna hold back from saying 'good post'. ;P

For my part, it's not about being for or against capitalism - but how much fairness and equality we want to cede to it, which I think is what you're saying anyway. I was recently listening to a discussion about the economic crisis in Japan last decade and how they operate a somewhat less dog-eat-dog version of capitalism than the US and UK. Another example would be Islamic banking which complies with Sharia Law - not something I endorse in its entirety (obviously), but there are aspects such as never charging interest (making money from money), and 'ethical' investment that show commerce can be practised in different and arguably more ethical ways if people want it to.

Re: Crunch
 

Well, you are lucky your daughter is able to go to college and you can buy the drugs you mention, the majority of the people in this world don't have the fuckin choice! i am NOT ashamed of myself in any way.......

maybe global capitalism has given us underworld but its also given us Paris fuckin Hilton and the like, the cult of celebrity, overhyped sports stars, hollywood and all that gross excess, your own countrymen making a fuckin fortune over the collapse of banks that they themselves instigated, poor countries being exploited for everything, blahdeblahdeblah....i could go on for hours but i won't bother cause i'm supposed to be the one with my head up my arse............:rolleyes:

Re: Crunch
 

You fucking nailed it, decks. you can have the super fantastic economic model #1 implemented, where on paper rainbows and daisy chains are meant to spontaneously occur across the land and it could still turn into a jack boot in the face without a strong foundation of ethics.

My favorite flavor is the free market. But I'd rather live in a strongly ethical communist regime over a dehumanizing and corrupt capitalist system anyday.

Nobody fucking talks about this. But I swear to god there's some nobel prizes in economics to be awarded if someone can scientifically quantify the importance of ethics to the success and wellbeing of an economic model.

Re: Crunch
 

I have a problem with the presumptions that:

a) "the market" and "supply and demand" exist almost as if they were natural laws, like the law of gravity. They are not. There is no such thing as a free market in real terms, in the same way as there has never been any such thing as communism in real terms. Neither have been practised - only bastardised substitute systems loosely based on the concepts; and

b) the capitalist system is the only system that would afford us a decent standard of living. It affords a decent standard of living to a relatively small minority of the earth's population, and does this by the exploitation of the larger majority - with so much wealth around, how come so many people are still living in poverty. I am fortunate that I fall into the relatively wealthy minority, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept that it is the only way to do things.

Bas_I_Am has a point, and he is entitled to put his point across. But, firstly, he seems not to be able to envisage a system where he wouldn't need to pay for his kids' college or healthcare and meds as it could be provided for by, for example a state-funded system.

Secondly I am disappointed that he chooses to revert to flame and insult to make his statement. That is the sort of ranting we see on political blogs, but it does nothing here except alienate people, imo.

That stance, for me, is the personification of Western Capitalism - arrogance, cock-suredness and an inability to entertain the notion of any other workable economic structure, perhaps for fear that somebody else might have a good point too, which undermines their belief system.

So let's rant and insult and belittle instead of engaging, cos that way we don't need to even consider what the other person is saying, much less question our own views...:rolleyes:

Re: Crunch
 

blaming all of western culture's failings on capitalism is a bit of stretch imo. Excess is part of human nature. It becomes a problem when people are no longer held accountable for their actions. That's more of a cultural problem than a purely capitalistic one I think.

Re: Crunch
 

I have problems with presumptions that

1) the free market is inherently and exploitative system, more so than socialism. A free market is a negative system in the sense that, while socialism relies on a government maintained apparatus, free market strives for the removal of it. That is not to say the free market == anarchy. It simply reduces the role of government to an objective referee, enforcing rules that aren't meant to favor any particular lobby.

2) the free market == laissez-faire capitalism. The free market is meant to be the freedom of minds to develop whatever system they choose from the grass roots level. Several instances of strong micro-socialistic organizations have existed in the most lawless sections of the U.S. in the 19th century. See law of consecration.

3) capitalism, not colonialism or mercantilism (strong government/business partnership. See east india company) is what has kept the 3rd world in such a shit mess. Seriously people. lets look at this a little closer. You got coke and paris hilton on one hand, British Petroleum on the other. who's getting the prize here?

Re: Crunch
 

Well said.

Re: Crunch
 

1994 John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) and John Harsanyi

Re: Crunch
 

The idea that it's "provided by the state" and therefore you don't have to pay for it is misleading. There's no such thing as a free lunch, you're still paying for all that stuff through more taxation.
(though I'm sure you realise this ;))

btw about the free market and why are there still so many people living in poverty: well for one thing if european governments wouldn't be working against the free market by subsidising their own agricultural industries, there would be a lot more opportunity to make money in the third world by exporting food to europe. If there was a true free market the situation would probably stabalise at some point. Of course that would mean less wealth for us so we're not actually prepared to take that step.

Re: Crunch
 

game theory is not exactly what I had in mind but yeah that's definitely on the subject.

Re: Crunch
 

Actually, the problem is that its shortcomings are NOT inherent. You and I could participate in a closed capitalistic economy, operate in a completely ethical manner and still make independent decisions that are detrimental to the economy. Or we could make other decisions, still ethical, that are good for our economy. There is no causal relationship between our decisions, our economy and the utlimate outcome.

Actually, free-market means that I am free to sell my/buy you property for what ever price I can get. Nothing more nothing less.

No, capitalism + avarice

Laissez-faire capitalism can but not always lead to a suboptimal use of resources. But this does not mean capitalism is inherently bad.

Again I refer you to the work of Nash, Selten, Harsanyi

Re: Crunch
 

more eloquently put than i ever could...........

Re: Crunch
 

there is a point where people just talk complete nonsense though.
not saying it's in this thread, because it isn't
but there's an awful lot of opinion where a receptive audience is more than it deserves.

Re: Crunch
 

seriously. that's why i'm not responding. my level of information is tapped after two pages on this thread. just have to see what happens to the market after the bailout. this next few months should prove interesting.

Re: Crunch
 

a large proportion of the third world cannot grow enough food to feed its own people let alone export it to europe! i find it incredible that you can buy fish farmed in zimbabwe at the local supermarkets today when most of their people can't get enough to eat. do you think that flogging their food while their people are starving to earn a bit of foreign currency is a good idea? same for kenya.........

Re: Crunch
 

once governments intervene (with bailouts) does it cease to be a free market?

Re: Crunch
 

i disagree, it's because people can take advantage of the system ( to such a disasterous effect) as it stands then the system most definitely is to blame.

Re: Crunch
 

This is only because of the predatory trade laws created by the G8 and other international bodies that hide fascism/mercantilism behind a soft smile of free market trade. If you need to find examples of the evils wrought from free market economics you need to cite one that actually involves principles of free market economics, not corrupt oligarchic collusion between governments and multinational CEO's.

True free market principles would have us grow and raise locally, because its cheaper, not import beef from brazilian rain forest lands to Utah because somebody had an inside connection to powerful governments.

Re: Crunch
 

for what system of government/economics is this not the case?

Re: Crunch
 

exactly. as I'm sure i've mentioned earlier, i'll argue that the result is closer to fascism than socialism.

Its important to put this in perspective. We bailed out the airlines right after 9/11 because we need airlines. We bailed out the big three american auto makers because the jackasses thought SUV's were the way to make them richer than God, because we need an automotive industry. We've been bailing out since Bush came into office. Seems like you can derive from this a few theories.

1. bail outs do not in themselves produce better economic conditions from which further bailouts are obsolete.

2. we assert the argument that anything government can do corporations can do better but then basically graft the corporations onto the governing body so that the result is a government-corporate complex of a many headed hydra against which no small businesses or middle class enterprise can hope to compete against. Which is why the whole fucking country is working for walmart.

So here's what free market theory says as far as I can see it. Bail-out fuck all and take this on the chops. Remove priveledges that allowed such detachments from reality, and place regulations that bring all the acid tripping harvard business school grads down to earth.

If that means we don't have banks for a bit. Fine. Serves us right for being uneducated about the practices of the banks we were patronizing. If that means we don't have cheap air travel for a few months? Great. Serves us right for allowing these douche bags such a choke hold on things. Have to buy german and japanese cars? awesome. Detroit has been responsible for stopping innovation and massive fuel guzzling for decades. Fuck em. Let the smarter, more ethical people come in their place. That's the free market. And I'm wondering how you would argue that such a process is inherently oppressive or evil.

Re: Crunch
 

Obviously I'm not suggesting that countries experiencing food shortages export whatever food they have left. But developing and third world countries have an enormous potential for agricultural production. The problem is that because EU and US protectionism the third world farmers are simply unable to compete with subsidised (not to mention mechanised) farmers from the EU and US. In fact we are dumping our own subsidized overstocks of food for cheap into foreign markets, depriving farmers there from making a decent living.

I'm sure you can find a lot of info online about the problems that our market protectionism is causing for the third world.
like here http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3226

hey, $700 billion, that number just keeps popping up doesn't it? ;)

this is also why i think that the whole foreign aid system is a big sham designed to keep our conscience clear so we won't have to deal with the real problems.

Re: Crunch
 

i know you weren't suggesting that, it's just that the whole system is geared against the third world and it makes me unhappy. I'll check out the link later as i'm at work now;).
It also bothers me when you rightly talk about the agricultural potential of the third world as i read an article the other day about using prime agricultural land in south asia for growing palm oil to produce petrol:(
Sorry to go on about this but i think the whole system is broken and needs replacing with something fairer - not bailing out. With that i'll say no more as i don't want to alienate anyone more than i have done already:o

Re: Crunch
 

Good post! if the free market worked properly then as you rightly state i couldn't possibly argue against it.........

Re: Crunch
 

and the airlines are arguably worse than ever before.

and there's still been no progress from these companies to move towards significantly more fuel efficient vehicles.


bailouts don't fix anything. they prop up failing industries so those industries can worsen and continue the failed policies that put them into the position of needing a bailout in the first place. this newest bailout will be no different.

Re: Crunch
 

and I concede that it is very very far from working properly. Which is what we have in common, I think deep down we want to see this whole shit house operation go down. And maybe that is infantile, as bas_I_am argues. Or maybe continually existing in such a cultural environment as this is what is truly infantile.

land of the free home of the brave my ass

we'll see how this works. in the mean time there's always beer. cheers

Re: Crunch
 

boy I hit that on the head didn't ?

Re: Crunch
 

Are you Jesus?

Re: Crunch
 

Look out for 9700

If it helps you sleep at night.

Re: Crunch
 

Theres no stopping it now.
This could fall to 9400.

Re: Crunch
 

"I don't know how he sleeps at night."

uuum, when you have a $5K matress(and possibly a whore on each side), you sleep pretty well. I think.

Re: Crunch
 

So bas_you_are.......


you seem to have a handle on the market's behavior. And you also argued in this thread in support of the bail out.

I'm curious why this precipitous drop is in no way an indication that the bail out failed to address the fundamental problems of the economy and everyone knows it, only further gauranteed a condition of stagflation circa 1978.

Re: Crunch
 

It's weird, but already, economic crisis fatigue is kicking in.

Even though today was a very very bad day.

I gather next year will be when a lot of the impact from this stuff will be felt in the real world.