Re: sherburne on underworld
 

goddamnit i hate how somehow i never stay logged in. had a thought out reply to all this mess and now its gone.

so in essence:
it was good to post the article, it lets people step out of their fanboy bubble and discuss underworld in the context of everyone else, not just you and underworld. even though i dismissed 2/3rds of it because i'm and underworld fan and he's a minimalist (something i dont really see the point in), i thought it was much more thought out than the responses it got ("he's obviously never been to a live show") and certainly the accusations of trolling were. articles like these should help forum members articulate *why* they love underworld past "OMG THEY BRING LIGHT IN" and look at what their beliefs are that lead to that in contrast with his. i'd rather be talking about this (because this place *can* talk about music seriously, thanks, it just doesnt happen (as) often), like whether or not underworld fail their attempts at transcendance because of the music's structure, then talking about hypothetical collaborations, niggling unreleased shit, and shit posted on ebay (except for the tokyo cds, that was rad).

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

To clarify: the accusation of trolling came not from the posting of the article itself, but from the "ha ha look at the fanboys' responses *pointing finger*" reaction, with no comment on the article at all. That was, imo, an unhelpful thing to post, taking the focus away from the subject matter, (which is the reason for posting the article in the first place, it seems,) and veering in the direction of personal attack instead of musical debate. I thought I said that earlier :confused:

Yes, it is important to have musical debate here. It is important for people to examine why it is they like or dislike a particular track or a particular album if they want to. It is also important to remember that nobody is obliged to, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. And, while intellectualism has its place, discussions on the relative merits of intellectualism vs anti-intellectualism would be better suited to the world forum than to the music sections.

The wonderful thing about Dirty is that it unites people from all ages, backgrounds, creeds, colours, walks of life and occupations. Some are intellectual, some are not, some are anti-intellectual. Some express themselves marvellously eloquently, others don't. But we all like the music otherwise we wouldn't be here and that is the cement of the forum. There is no such thing as "too thick to like Underworld" to the best of my knowledge :p ;)

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

the issue behind the pointing and laughing at the fanboys was how utterly incapable a majority were at being able to craft a decent response that didnt call him coked out or ignorant. whether this guy knows what he's talking about or not, he's respected enough to be widely read, and now that he takes a potshot at UW, all of a sudden he's 10 different synonyms of "washed-up". thats why you get laughed at.

and what the hell do you mean when you say intellectualism has its place? we're still talking about underworld, and we're still definately talking about music. this is just incorporating a certain attitude that's pretty pervalent in this forum into that discussion and to say that "now you're thinking too hard, take it to the world forum" is A BIG REASON why it's hard to take this section seriously sometimes.


that sounds just peachy, but you're talking about the internet more than you're talking about dirty. and letting everyone float around in this haze "i just want to BE, man" without having to explain themselves allows DUMBASSES to get away with their dumbass opinion because they're simply "not eloquent" and "there's a place for intellectualism" when really you're just faced with someone whos lazy and doesnt register this conceptual bubble of uncritical and forced acceptance, even in the face of something ludicrous. it's just a place here their dumbassery goes unmolested.

but now i'm talking about the internet and not dirty, so let me relate this back to here.
what you're doing, is by forcibly accepting all and trying to understand and adapt to everyone character, is encouraging stultifying, non-critical conversation that repress things like heatedness and your interpretation of "negative vibes" simply for what? someone's ego? because dirty is such a safe haven that peoples bad argument skills shouldnt be pointed out and their ignorance ignored? this forum isnt going to shit because a few people viciously argue about something. it goes to shit when no one here has a reason past unfocused anger or bleeding positivity. the glue you're talking about is a fairly loose one and it implies that just because you like underworld that you're a voice worth hearing around here. i cant think of many members that contradict that (well, i can, but this isnt the place) but the logic is flawed, not to mention self-insulating.

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

So what you are effectively saying is that the people who cannot argue with the same intellectual capacities as you have no voice here, without risking ridicule from the elite few who happen to have an excellent education and above-average argument skills? Jesus, this is a music forum, not the College debating union. It is not about form, it is about substance. If one constantly ignores the substance to criticise the form from ones elitist ivory tower, it alienates the 95% of the population who do not have the same debating skills as you, and they stop posting for fear of being remonstrated with for not being intellectually up-to-the-mark. That is what stultifies discussion. Self-styled, snug intellectuals with their "holier than thou", self-mastubatory rhetoric and critique of those less eloquent than they. There is a huge difference between education and intelligence.

Tell me, would you use the same language talking to the guy in McDonalds, and mock him if he replied with weak argumentative skills? Or would you just not engage in conversation with him in the first place because he is not worthy?

There is a big world out there - not everyone is as fortunate as you or I to have had the educational opportunities we have. Not everyone is fortunate enought to have the intellectual capacity we have. Do we therefore disregard anything they have to say and mock them when they say it? Not I, sir. Not I.

</rant>

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

alright, i'll bite. i read the article and it's not a diss piece on UW. p.s. is clearly wrong about STITI but he does make some good points. i'll start with the bullshit and work up to the good stuff.

Sherburne calls UW a "brand" early on and i haven't got a clue what he means. more than anything, i think this shows he's ignorant of how UW operate. does he even know about Tomato? Clear case of bullshit.

P.S. says Karl's statement on RA wasn't convincing. How well does he know Karl? Why wasn't it convincing? I was convinced. I don't think Karl Hyde is in the game of deceiving interviewers to sound more respectable. The RA interview was great, but it didn't help with Sherburne's preplanned thesis on his UW piece, so he said he didn't believe the quote. Lazy and self serving.

The thesis of this piece could have easily been: UW once were on top of the world (dubno/trainspotting etc) but are now satisfied with a much quieter existence, happy to experiment and do things their own way with no regard for sales figures, the antithesis of a "brand". Sherburne off the mark again.

Then he quotes an idiot: "Their polarizing abilities are evident in the comment from an eMusic subscriber who complains about the site's categorization of their iconic album Second Toughest in the Infants as house and techno: "Do you need help classifying music? This is not house. This is ambient."
- why quote an idiot P.S.? cuz only an idiot would agree with your preplanned thesis? if you put weight on a statement from a retarded moron who thinks STITI is ambient, then you're a fucking tool, even duller than once thought.

The single most ridiculous and heinous part of Sherburne's piece was this chestnut: "Second Toughest feels more like a cut-and-paste job, a collage of pieces that don't really have anything to do with one another. "Confusion the Waitress" is the only track that retains the restraint of the earlier album; the rest feels either frantic ("Pearls Girl") or affectedly slack ("Stagger")."
- no comment necessary. this is so laughable we don't need to list the hundreds of reasons he's wrong. clueless coked up asshole, should have been my quote earlier.

Now for the good bit. He concludes pretty much on target:

"With the benefit of a whole lot of hindsight, A Hundred Days Off sounds less like the contractual obligation of a group past its prime and more like the blueprint for what could be the best work of Underworld's career. With a lightness of touch you don't often hear in main-stage techno, the album reclaims the balance of Dubnobass and redefines the terms for any "take 'em or leave 'em" scenario. With a new album reportedly due by the end of the year, let's hope Underworld's low profile continues to prove as inspiring as their fall from grace did"


this leads me to believe Sherburne is really a fan, but a fan who had to write a specific word count and couldn't be bothered to do a decent article. he does get UW, but his view of STITI is ignorant and offensive.

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

get a life, people

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

agent provocateur :p

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

I find it interesting that he mentions the riverrun stuff, but has he even listened to it? There's a whole bunch of new music to talk about and we end up with a reviews of albums that have been out for a while. AHDO is not a pointer to the future, riverrun and the latest live stuff is.

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

in the time you (and others) wrote all that stuff you could've done much more useful things. seriously, i have some essays due in january....wanna write them for me?

Re: sherburne on underworld
 

.... watched telly, played scrabble, ate mince pies (again) chatted online. boxing day is bloody boring! I like something to make my brain work when I am on holiday. :D

Excellent point. Which goes back to my theory about lack of knowledge and/or research. Lazy journalism imo.