Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

let me be clear, i'm not in any way trying to portray this as an 11 on a scale of 1 to 10. while it's an issue for me, do not make the mistake of deciding it's THE issue to me. it's a blip. it's a blip that matters to me, but there are a lot of things that matter to me.

it does, unfortunately, taint my opinion of him as a man. however, i never make the mistake of convincing myself that politicians are beyond egotism and arrogance. it's a necessary personality trait in order to make it this far. so while i think it speaks volumes about the way his mind ticks over when he sees a woman (more reflexive than the michael richards example, which isn't a good parallel) i think it's quite likely that there are other worse flaws and other more important good elements to his persona.

but i do see it as a flaw. and it does disappoint me. because i want him to be better than this. i guarantee you, mccain has "sweetied" his fair share of female colleagues, but i don't want mccain to be better than he is. i'm not looking for inspiration and change and progressive thinking from mccain.

no politician is either going to win or lose my vote over something like this. but it does indelibly mark him in my mind. it disappoints me on a point that should have been a gimmie.

and to address the question of whether it clutters the argument against sexism to focus on the "small" things, i would argue that we're at a point in society where the big things can't be completely eradicated unless we highlight the small things. the small things are insidious. they are the building blocks that support the big things. point out the insidious ways in which sexism is still allowed to invade our language (effete is a good example, female = weak) and we're forced to examine how it's possible for the big sexism to still persist in this day and age.

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

Point taken, but my point also still stands, which is that the examples you gave are inherently derogatory, while the term "sweetie" is inherently a term of endearment. That being said, I will reiterate that I understand, in a case like this, why the use of the word "sweetie" is seen as diminishing. Just to be clear, all we're arguing as far as I can tell is exactly how offensive it actually is, and how much it really says about a man.

This is actually what I was getting at earlier. No, offensiveness is not purely dictated by intent. But by the same tolken, offensiveness is also not dictated purely by perception. All I'm saying is that we need to measure both sides of the situation - how the word is perceived coupled with the actual intent - in order to objectively determine how big a deal something like this is.

The best way I can explain this is by sharing something that once happened to me. A friend of mine from college was an intense feminist. I mean really, really intense. She was over at me and my roomate's apartment one day, flipping through a magazine, and she came to some advertisement that had a picture of a young female model in it. She seemed kind of flustered by it, showed me the picture, and said something like "do guys really find her attractive?" I looked at the picture, and I said something like, "yeah, she's a pretty girl". My friend responded with a look of shock and said "GIRL? A pretty GIRL?!?", and then went on to berate me for using the word "girl". I explained that the model looked like she was younger than me (I was around 19 at the time), and since I didn't think of myself as a "man" yet, then it's only natural that I didn't think of this model as a "woman" yet either. My friend asked what I would call my male friends who were around my age, and I said "not men...probably guys". Her final angry point was that it isn't "guys and girls, it's guys and gals". So I said "okay, she's a pretty gal then", and that was the end of it.

In my friend's mind, I was behaving in a sexist way despite the fact that what I said was intended in a completely benign way. Frankly, to this day, I will maintain that my use of the word "girl", despite the offense my friend took to it, did not speak in any way to my attitude towards women. It only spoke to my overall attitude towards maturity, and when people of either sex reach adulthood. My friend's perception to the contrary didn't change that fact of my intent in the slightest, regardless of how strongly she felt about it. And incidentally, we remained close friends. We even came very close to dating, but never quite pulled the trigger because she got back with her ex-boyfriend.

Anyway, I don't offer this as a perfect anaolgy - I only offer it as an example of how perception and intent are all relative to the situation. As you said, we have no way of knowing exactly what motivates Obama's use of a word like "sweetie", but I think it's safe to say that his overall demeanor and treatment of people doesn't seem to support the idea that we should take his use of it in the worst possible way. I'm not saying that's what you're doing exactly, I'm just trying to word my thoughts clearly here.

It's funny you should use this picture as an example, because yes, I would take some small issue with someone accusing the photographer (or editor who wrote the caption) of being offensive by using the word "boy". The first thing I thought when I opened the picture after reading what you had written was "well they do look to be young boys". I mean, how old would you guess they are? I would guess around 15 or so myself...maybe even younger. I don't consider 15 to be a man, I consider 15 to be a boy. So maybe it was meant as derogatory, but there's a very fair argument to be made that it was not. I would never claim that your coworker had "no right to be offended", but to assume the worst is unfair to the person in question (the photographer in this case), and is not a way of approaching situations that I personally ascribe to.

And this is something we fundamentally differ on. I understand your point, but I flatly disagree that an instance of someone like Obama using the word "sweetie" is "much worse" than someone calling a woman a "cunt" or a "bitch". Yes, you can fight harmful intent, but my feeling is that you don't have to "fight" the use of a term you view as derogatory if the intent is not malicious. Deckard gave a great example with his parents. He didn't need to fight them on it because they weren't trying to be hurtful. All he seemed to have to do was point out that what they said could be taken as offensive, and they adjusted. Easy as pie, and everyone's happy. As an example to the contrary, my college friend DID choose to fight me over my benign use of the word "girl", and all it accomplished was taking an innocent situation and turning it into a confrontation that we both left feeling frustrated.

In this case with Obama, he immediately recognized how what he said could be perceived, and apologized. As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of the issue. Now if he starts showing a pattern of true disrespect towards women that stretches beyond the isolated bad habit of using a word like "sweetie", then yes, I will agree that his use of the word is quite possibly indicitive of something more. At this point however, that's not the case, so I just personally see this as a pretty minor issue.

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

cacophony, it's really just the way boys talk with each other. And I know you're still going to reem me on for saying that.

Will it change your mind if rebut that I cringe when I hear "(the letter after O) control' no matter how empowering they say it is supposed to imply?

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

Just saw this buried in an article about the two Democratic campaigns planning to merge for the campaign against McCain:

"There's gale-force pressure for Obama to choose a Clinton loyalist as a running mate to heal the party but avoid putting her and her formidable baggage on the ticket," said one Obama ally in Washington. "You hear the names [Ohio Gov. Ted] Strickland, [Indiana Sen. Evan] Bayh, and [retired general] Wes Clark almost constantly, and it's no secret that Jim Johnson and Tom Daschle are purveyors of that wisdom."

It just seemed like one of the more definitive short-lists I've seen so far.

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

Well, I'm about as anti-pc as they come, and I found the comment just a little bit irritating, myself. Not from a man vs. woman perspective, but from a professional standpoint. Using terms of endearment or affection is only acceptable, in a professional situation, when the two people involved know each other personally, and only "off the clock."

When you use a familiar form of address with someone, especially when engaged in their line of work, it undermines their authority and legitimacy. This woman is a reporter, who was called-upon by her bosses to cover the democratic front runner for one of the most important elections in recent history, and the "sweetie" comment reduced her, in front of her colleagues, to a bush-league greenhorn.

I've had many friends of higher (sometimes much higher) rank than myself and, after close of business, I felt comfortable addressing them by their first name, by nicknames, or just their last name, but back on the job, I would never use any of those terms in front of their colleagues or mine. It sends the wrong message to my subordinates (the fact that I could address someone of a higher rank so familiarly could start rumors of fraternization or favoritism) and superiors would be perfectly within their rights if they dressed me down for not giving them the respect of their rank.

I realize the exchange did not occur between two members of the armed forces, but these are two professionals, and for one to withhold professional courtesy from the other shows either elitism, thoughtlessness, or just plain old bad manners. If Barack Obama is not a sexist, but simply possessed of a "bad habit," it's one that he absolutely needs to rid himself of, and now, because whether he is a sexist or isn't, is an elitist or isn't, his image simply cannot survive such verbal gaffes in the future. It's things like this that snowball and sabotage you before you even get a chance to get anything done.

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

^ agree.

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

I was really hoping for a reply from you to some of the points I last raised on this. Any chance you may have the time? :)

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

i'm sorry, it's a really long post and i've been tired and uncomfortable all day. i blame two babies on a growth spurt, who have just learned how to kick the crap out of my insides. let me have a look tomorrow and i promise to try to muster the energy to respond. ;)

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

Um, on a lighter note, I got to shake Obama's hand today! :)

Re: U.S. Presidential Election 2008
 

Babies schmabies!

;)

Very cool. Did you hear him speak somewhere?