Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Not sure how different it is really.
And you could apply the exact same principle to marketing music. Except that instead of youtube you have p2p networks. Make music available for free online as an advertising tool for your concerts and merchandise (and better quality copies of the music on cd or paid download). The principle is exactly the same.
There's always gonna be people who will settle for the inferior quality donwload and not buy the cd, just as there will be people who will be perfectly happy to watch Python clips on youtube and never buy a dvd, but still they decided to embrace the idea of online filesharing rather than fight it, as they literally say in the video.

Now Sean, just because you keep repeating the same point doesn't mean that other people can't disagree or try to provide different points of view. ;)
And while I sympathise and understand that you feel passionately about this, I have to say that just because your are an independant artist yourself doesn't make your point of view the only right one. (I'm sure that's not how you meant it but it does come across like that in your last paragraph).

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

The advertising approach is making the video available only on youtube. You can't download it to watch it any where any time like you could if you had it on a dvd. It's also only available on youtube as a compressed file. So logically, if someone wants a copy that they can watch any where at any time, and that's full quality, they'll buy the dvd.

Having an illegaly downloaded copy on dvd means that you can watch it any where at any time, often at full quality without having paid for it, thus robbing the creators of the content of income. It's pretty clearly different.

Agreed.

The illegal downloading I have a problem with is when people use P2P sites to share full quality, copyrighted material, causing an artist to lose sales. Using lower quality downloads (although I would lean towards the youtube model of non-downloadable previews like Amazon.com does) for advertising is a great idea. Myspace does the same thing, providing a lower quality music player that can provide the full, non-downloadable track as a preview. I think that's great.

Point of view is one thing. We can all have diverse points of view on how best to deal with the issue of illegal downloads. But in the last paragraph you mentioned, I'm talking about a simple fact that too many people ignore. Stealing the work of an artist rather than paying for it hurts the artist financially. That's not my opinion, or my personal point of view - it's a simple fact. What we do about it is where all our different - and in many cases valid - points of view come into play.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

New Zealand Internet blackout protest against insane copyright law.

click

Black out your Twitter avatar, Facebook/Myspace pages, or even websites to protest against the insane new law that will come into full force on February 28.

(three cheers for Stephen Fry for tweeting it to wider attention)

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Yeah - cheers Stephen.

I don't follow his tweets - but if you follow the links, you'll see the insanity of the law.

Here's the former minister, kicked out last year, in effect doing her best Marie Antoinette impersonation: "they can go to the library to use the internet".

Fucking ridiculous.

I'm in charge of info-tech at our school - we run the risk of being cutoff because some child watches a youtube video of the latest Paramount - or god forbid, remixes an image in an art appreciation class.

Someone should just cut the pissy little pipe that provides our link the net - and the RIANZ and NZFACT can all cut their losses and save the world. Fucking pricks.

And yes - I'm posting from school. :)

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

The founders of Pirate Bay, based in Sweden, have been sentenced to a year in prison and a fine of a little under 4 million dollars each. They're defying the court ruling.

I'm hoping to get some thoughts from others on this here, because I'm somewhat torn on it. On the one hand, they're not actually involved with hosting the illegal files being shared through their site, but on the other, what other purpose does their site serve than enabling illegal file sharing? Even the name implies as much - "Pirate Bay".

And of course there's still the issue that I'm in the minority on here, which is that I know first-hand how illegal file-sharing absolutely devastates lesser known artists and labels, so I'm against it from the get-go. But I know that many here believe it's a good thing because of the exposure it can provide. I actually understand that argument, but disagree with how beneficial it is to smaller artists, because while it's nice to hear that thousands of people love you're work, admiration and praise simply don't pay the bills....

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

In a desperate bid to keep hope alive... the Canadian BSA - just makes a whole bunch of numbers up - aiming to prove that piracy is thriving - they just don't have any evidence, because they never actually did any surveying in Canada.

Oh yeah - we're taking it seriously now.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I don't use torrent sites as I don't d/l movies or tv shows and to be honest these days I don't even use soulseek much as it seems ridiculously easy to type in 'band name, band album, rar' into Roogle and find a leaked album on rapidshare or mediafire in seconds.

There's also loads of blogs out there that post links to leaked albums so I can't really see how they're going to stop it unless they do get the ISPs to come down on people with heavy traffic. But then if you've paid for Unlimited broadband I can't see how that will work unless they can prove you're d/l illegal content and it doesn't take to much research on Google to find out how to mask your ISP address when d/l if you so wanted.

Actually, fuck it, if they're serious they should go after Google as I can learn do to all sorts of illegal things using their search engine...

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

No, no, no, you don't get it. It just takes the focus off the stealing from tax payers. I think. Maybe. To be honest, I don't really pay attention to this stuff. I'm just bored. For now.

(arrow thing pointing down)

Yeah, but really, is it Oregano* or Basil* I'm tasting?


*I'm being all artsey now.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I can't say that I agree that the issue is about who's getting hurt and how, but whether or not the site owners are complicit in any way. In my mind this is really a slippery slope. Some of the content on TPB isn't copyrighted, and some is but the problem that I see is that if Ginsu's not liable for every person that's been murdered by their knives and if Hoffman-La Roche isn't liable for every sexual assault that happens because of Rohypnol, then how are the guys from TPB guilty of anything? TPB helps people commit illegal acts but what about movies that glorify violence?

I think that society's definition of complicity is way too vague to force these guys to pay $4,000,000 and a year of incarceration.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Sweden's Pirate Party has won a seat in the European Parliament. The group - which campaigned on reformation of copyright and patent law - secured 7.1% of the Swedish vote. The result puts the Pirate Party in fifth place, behind the Social Democrats, Greens, Liberals and the Moderate Party.

Swedish pirates capture EU seat

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Ben Goldacre did his usual expert hatchet job on the dodgy statistics being bandied about by industry and government as to how much revenue is "lost" as a result of downloading in his Bad Science column in the Grauniad.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! t'is a fine thing, t'be sure! aaaarrr!:D

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Well let's be real about this specific case. The website was designed largely for the purpose of sharing copyrighted material, all the way down to their name. I mean seriously - "Pirate Bay" is a pretty blatant announcement of their intent. And like any of the copyright law-abiding companies out there, they could very simply set up their site in a way that fights illegal sharing - employing filters that identify copyrighted materials, having site administrators who keep on the lookout for abuse, banning members who make copyrighted material available, etc. Simply because we live in the digital age doesn't mean responsibility is no longer relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I have no great love of big-ass record labels, or even big movie studios despite being employed by one. If I didn't need money to survive, I would be working on my own projects all the time, not on these gigantic, "four-quadrant", hundred million dollar movies. But that being said, people and companies are entitled to protecting their products and belongings. Pre-digital age, the equivalent of "Pirate Bay" would be something like "Shoplift Express", and they would be providing the means to remove those bulky old CD security cases that they used to use in music stores. But would we be having a debate about whether it was right or wrong to purposefully facilitate shoplifting? Probably not. Somehow, because we're talking about digital files being stolen instead of physical products, it's become something to support and even celebrate in many people's eyes.

And just in case anyone has missed when I've said it in the past, I also don't agree with the harsh measures being taken by large labels/studios - there's no justification to absolutely destroy Jane or John Doe's entire financial existence as retribution for having a few hundred illegally downloaded songs. They could just demand the cost of the illegal files along with a reasonable fine to discourage illegal behavior, and call it even. But to pretend that there's nothing wrong with stealing music or movie files is, in my opinion, ignorant, selfish, short-sighted, and typically damaging to small, independent artists. A company like Pirate Bay sets a horrible example, and I'm all for seeing them shut down, or forced to modify their business model to be in line with copyright laws. As a professional artist both in film and music, I've witnessed artists being screwed over time and time again when they didn't have proper copyright protections in place, so to see the power of copyrights being nullified is extremely disheartening.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

And in Australia - they're going after the music that's played in cafe's, gyms, shops, the pub....

I'll have a little more Elvis with that thanks...

I think you'll find they'll either ignore it - and play whatever iPod that's brought in - or they'll just not play any music.

Or. SHOCK HORROR! They'll source Creative commons licensed music - or get tunes direct from the artist and holy hell - the big record labels are still screwed.

What a sad bunch of little people run organisations like the PPCA.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

What the hell ever happened to, say, a 5% increase? They really have to shoot right for a 2000% bump? Stupid.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Agreed - I think most people would understand a nominal increase - but this just seems like an insane amount to ask - during a recession, when most small businesses are struggling anyway.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Just came across some interesting stuff in a profile page of one of the smaller, independent musicians I've been mentioning that has suffered from illegal file-sharing:

The changes in the technologies and the attitudes of everyone toward the World Wide Web are all extremely exciting to me. Even so, my last three records have been stolen in their entirety by torrent sites and as a result, sadly we can no longer release records. It has been extremely frustrating but like many of my fellow artists, I feel that at least my work is out there and being listened to. I do get many promises from folk who say they love the music. I even get emails of great encouragement, but if everyone that visited my profile on Myspace, Facebook, or my personal site bought just one track for £1 or even an album, it would make a really big difference to us. So if you can afford to, please do visit, listen and BUY at julieishername.com

How many of us are illegally downloading songs and tunes when we can afford to buy?

Make no mistake! IT IS KILLING NEW MUSIC AND STARVING OUT OTHERWISE EMERGENT ARTISTS!

With the entire hullabaloo about how bigger labels and chart artists are losing millions, it is the smaller, independent labels that are hardest hit by this. Most have no option but to shut up shop if more than one record get torrented. We can never make our outlay back nor pay our already long-suffering and underpaid artists their due (myself included).

Skipping ahead...

It is the bigger torrent sites, their organisers like The Pirate Bay and their internet service providers that must be taken to task now. They like to come across as if they are freedom fighters and rebels when in fact they are all just organized chancers and rip off merchants that make a lot of money gleaned from advertising while using the vehicle of OUR songs that they give away for free!

IT IS, INDISPUTABLY, FRAUD!

I believe that if most people were properly educated about the ramifications of illegal downloading for lesser-known artists, they would be more inclined toward the support of artists- especially if they know that their money goes into the pocket of artists direct.

You can see from my obsessive rant that this has rather taken up all head space for some time now but I don't apologize for being so passionate or for feeling so cross and protective about the work that I create.

Just thought I'd share since it comes from a musician/record label owner who has suffered the severe negative affects of illegal file sharing directly. I really hope that some of this information has some impact on someone out there, because the damage being heaped on independent artists by the actions of so many people out there is a huge problem. It's hard enough establishing yourself as a professional artist without then having your professional work stolen out from under you.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I think you're reading that wrong; they're actually asking for a 200000% increase. Good luck!!

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I still disagree with this, this has more to do with the difference between a physical object and a digital one. If I shoplift 40,000 CDs, that is a big problem for the music industry - if I download the same amount, it's really not a big deal.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

You're placing the value of a musical product solely on it's physicality, which is simply not the case. The production of an album involves hiring musicians that need to be paid, hiring people to work the recording and mastering sessions, paying for the use of a recording studio, the cost of marketing, etc. There are a ton of expenses that are often far more costly than just the physical media the album is burned to.

And even the monetary investments aside, there's the time and creative investment put in by the artists themselves. This is their livelihood. Like anyone, they can only afford to continue to do their job - making music - if it provides them with enough financial return to fund the process. If they put in the time and effort to create something and make it available for purchase, but you simply take it for free, then what return are they getting to make it possible for them to make more? Do you do something for a living that you could afford to continue doing even if it meant you'd be losing money rather than getting a paycheck?

And ultimately, when you take something that doesn't belong to you from someone that you're not supposed to, whether it's a physical item or intellectual property, it's stealing. Actually, are you familiar with the concept of intellectual property? You may not be based on your repeated claims that illegally downloading a digital file is somehow not stealing, or at the very least, not a problem.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I completely disagree with you on this. We can't get married now.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

What's the disagreement?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I KNOW it's not just the physicality of the object. And I do know what intellectual property is. But you need to realize that there's a difference between a digital file and a physical product. It is possible to 'steal' a digital file and cause absolutely no damage to anyone. There is an infinite amount of digital files. There is a finite amount of physical products.

The problem is that it's too hard to put a value on these files, especially since many studies conflict (often depending on whether or not the RIAA funds them). Remember how the music industry was preparing for Kid A to be a huge flop since it leaked 6 months early? (this was right at the peak of the Napster age) Remember how it hit #1 like experimental albums like that NEVER do?

Whether or not it's unethical I think is a real grey area. If I download a new CD that I really want instead of paying for it, yeah, that's unethical. On the other hand, just recently I downloaded some Primal Scream albums (which I otherwise never would have heard) and bought a ticket to their show; the band directly profitted from my downloading. It's not as cut and dry as you think it is.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

it is a huuuuuuge deal. I know that you know that many record labels are not sony pushing mariah carey. They are small start ups where 40,000 downloads could equate to sales for an entire quarter or total sales for a good chunk of their artists. That means bankrupsy. All because dl'ers are too intellectually lazy to put some comparisons on things, refusing to see the guy forfeiting the money as anything but a fat ass in a limo ear deep in hookers.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

the reason you see it difficult is because its not your job. its the artist's preferably and if not them, the label. this isn't a turkish bazaar.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

its only gray for any one person to download, in the aggregate, it is black and white ethical. During ww2 london had strict gas rations. everyone was supposed to turn down their heat during the winter. So does that mean its unethical for one person to heat it up a few degrees now and then? What if everyone did it?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

i'm meaning that i download 40,000 copies of something. it is different from stealing 40,000 cds.

i don't know how many startups are losing that many in sales. i am sure that some smaller record labels are suffering from file sharing. some may be benefitting from it.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

that's dealing with a finite resource though. if 10,000 people who have never heard of your band downloaded a CD and went to a show, is that unethical, even if this clearly is beneficial for the band?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Its quite simple.

Of course downloading 40,000 copies of something is different to stealing 40,000 CDs. But, downloading a copy of an album only has no effect if you werent intending to buy the CD anyway. The only time it makes a difference is when you were going to then got the free mp3s and didnt buy it. However, theres the flipside which is when you hear a few mp3s from a band you've never heard of, and then proceed to buy their CDs based on this.

The data based on the actions above is pretty much guesswork. The people discovering new music and buying CDs vs the people stopping buying and just downloading. Its very hard to quantify.

As for me, I dont buy very much music anymore, but I do have around 2000 CDs already so I dont feel too guilty about downloading stuff. I've given a lot of cash to the music industry, far more than the average joe. I do like and prefer physical product, and its getting harder to walk into a shop and buy a CD. I think that thanks to the music industry not being quick enough to provide an easy way to buy digital music, they are getting used to not buying anything and we'll have a generation of people used to getting all their music for free.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

That's so true; I can't believe that iTunes is still kind of a recent thing. I remember when I was in 1st grade my Dad telling me about the internet and how it was going to be the future of everything, including music, and that some day you'd be able to just get music on your computer and make CDs out of it. This was in 1993 mind you. There's a good article out there on how the major labels basically dropped the ball on the internet thing, dismissing it as just a fad, and most of the higher-ups didn't even really know what it was. Yikes.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Of course there's a difference in that one is physical and one is digital, but the glaring flaw in your point here is that the potential for a seemingly infinite number of digital files being copied with ease and at no cost is simply irrelevant. What is relevant is how many copies, regardless of format, are actually consumed by the public and whether or not those copies were paid for. That's why the sentence "it is possible to 'steal' a digital file and cause absolutely no damage to anyone" is stunningly naive. Ask yourself, "what if everyone downloaded a particular digital album illegally instead of buying it?" Of course the answer would be that the artist who created the album would get absolutely no return on their financial, creative, and time investments, regardless of whether it was 100 people who illegally downloaded it, or 1,000,000. And by extension that would likely have a significant negative affect on their ability to continue creating the music that you and everyone else are sitting at home enjoying your stolen copies of. Nowhere in that reality does it matter that a digital file could be duplicated for free. The consequences of having a product stolen remain the same regardless of whether that product was physical or digital.

Generally speaking, the value is 99 cents per track. Why is that any harder to accept than placing a value of around $15 on a physical CD that only costs pennies to press? Everything that's available for purchase is subject to having a relatively arbitrary value placed on it, digital files included.

As for Radiohead, I'd hardly call them emerging artists. They were already solidly established, and as such can count on a certain amount of guaranteed success with each release. Although personally, I don't view that as any kind of justification for stealing their albums. But that aside, my primary concern lies with lesser known artists who suffer the repercussions of your actions on a much more severe level. The people to whom every sale counts as they try to get their careers off the ground.

So then in your view, purchasing one item from a group justifies stealing multiple other items from them as well? Does that mean that the converse would be true, and I could feel just spiffy about buying one of their albums, and then sneaking into a few of their concerts for free? Nevermind the separate laundry list of expenses that go into putting on a concert - lighting, roadies, managers, venue, transportation, security, etc. - after all, the band has already profited from my single album purchase, so there's nothing wrong with enjoying the non-physical product that is a few concerts, right?

Or maybe we should apply the same thought process to downloadable software. I record my music using Reason. Since I already bought a previous version of the program, I might as well just steal any upgrades that come out for it from now on. Nevermind research and development costs, employee salaries, marketing costs, etc. - after all, they've already profited from me, and it's not a physical product.

This line of reasoning is nothing more than weak justification for selfish, unethical, illegal behavior.

As a final example, I'm currently working on my first album. As a partial list so far, I've had to join the local musician's union, upgrade some of my recording software, set up studio time, set up recording sessions with a guitarist, a drummer and a few singers, and have invested quite a bit of time into getting the first four tracks to a point where I'm ready bring in these other musicians. I still have to set up my own label so I can self-distribute the final album, master the tracks once they're done, create the visual artwork for it, assemble it all into a cohesive package, market it, etc., etc. - all of which will probably take me at least another year or two. And yet you think that after all of my personal and financial investment in creating this final product, it's no problem if you just hack into my private online storage site and download the album for free. That's "hurting no one" in your opinion. Well frankly, in a situation like this, your opinion doesn't matter. I'm the one who owns the intellectual property that is my album, and I'm choosing to put it on the market as a product meant to be purchased. If you want it, you're legally and ethically obliged to honor my wishes as said owner. As my sig says, you're free to go download all the remixes I have available online at no cost to you, but I need some return on the investments I'm making in this album. Simply put, you're not the one who dictates to me the price that you've decided you're going to pay for the product that I've created. That's my legal right, and if you violate it, you're wrong and should be held accountable.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I think it does justify it in some cases. If you would have never gone to a Primal Scream concert if you didnt download the albums then the band get money from you that they otherwise wouldnt have received.

Also going to gigs pays bands more money than if you buys cds because the record company takes less/none of the cash, so doing it in reverse is worse for the band. I've blagged guest lists before to gigs, and then bought a CD later. Is this wrong?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Sure, but they didn't receive the money they're owed for the stolen albums that are now a part of 3....'s music collection, so they're still out some cash that they've worked for. I just don't personally see the justification in saying "I have four products from these people, but I only stole three of them. Since I paid for the fourth thing after liking those first three that I stole, it's okay! They made money off me!"

That depends on the band. If it's an artist who has their own label set up to release their own music through, then you're stealing more money from them when you illegally download their music.

Not sure what "blagged" means, but since when is it a solid argument to say that it's okay to steal something from someone because you could have stolen something from them that was more expensive?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I'm not happy with the first point either, but thats how things are these days and its how artists are being discovered from giving their music away (unintentionally via torrents, or intentionally like Radiohead or The Charlatans and to a certain extent Underworld who gives us loads of free stuff). Its not a clear cut justification to steal the music but if you do discover a band via downloading and then give money to the band afterwards it has to be seen as a positive thing. Good things come from bad.

I see your point about the own label thing. Blagging means begging or scrounging or being cheeky and asking the right people for the guest list. But this is just a small part of the 'hospitality' that venues have.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I don't see the connection between giving away music for free (ala Underworld's Riverrun series) and downloading a leaked pre-release copy of Oblivion With Bells and then never buying a copy because "I fully intend to go see them live when they come to my city."

I can't believe this thread is multiple pages of people defending stealing intellectual property. Its stealing. You've taken something that has a cost/value associated with it and taken it without paying that cost. That is the very definition of theft.

Argue all you want about who it hurts, or who it helps, but its all moot. If I declare that my album is worth $10, and that to own my album you need to pay $10, and you download it for free, you just stolen that album.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Well I'm sorry for being 'stunningly naive" but I'm sick of people saying that downloading = shoplifting. I know that some people will think that every download = one lost sale, but that's simply not true. A kid who has 10,000 albums and downloads 10,000 more that he never intends to listen to is not then causing the music industry $150,000 worth of damage. The actual figure would probably be about $0. If he shoplifted CDs then he is definitely hurting the music business. Yes, it takes control out of the hands of the artists and can hurt them, but it's not going to go away, and calling it outright 'theft' is a little strongarmed when you compare it to the theft of physical products. Yes, if everyone downloaded the album instead of buying it, the artists would be losing money. Same thing if everyone who test drove a certain car didn't buy it. The idea that the amount of people downloading and not buying your album is valid but only in a narrow view. If a million people download your album, there's interest for a tour, merchandise, advertising; maybe you wouldn't want to do that stuff, but it's not as though every album was guaranteed to recoup its investment post-digital age through CD sales either. In fact, in that age you'd probably never even be able to record and release your own music.

I meant in terms of the artist, not the consumer. When I download an album that I didn't intend to purchase, how much money is the artist losing? Could they actually be making money from that? Hard to say isn't it?

Understood. But the fact of the matter is that Kid A NEVER would have hit #1 if not for illegal, immoral, and selfish theft. That makes this not such a black and white issue.

Naaah, I'm actually pretty good about buying albums from bands I actually do like and supporting the artists that I'm a big fan of. If you want to argue that it's illegal or unethical, that's one thing. But that's not the logic I'm trying to use here. I'm just arguing that it's not as black and white as *actual* theft. Consider these scenarios:

1. A guy who has never heard of your band is burned a copy of the CD by a friend, and then buys a ticket to a show.
2. Someone sneaks into a non-sold out concert, likes the music, and buys a T-shirt
3. Someone downloads a copy of a certain software, but likes it enough to buy the next version when it comes out.

Now, according to what you're saying, all three of these people are immoral, selfish, and acting outside the law. However in all three cases, the artist/band/software company has made money from this behavior at NO COST. I'm not saying downloading music is ethically sound. I know it would be bad if EVERYONE did it and nobody bought CDs. But that's just not what's happening now and probably not what's going to happen in the future

You can be upset that your friends are no longer able to make music because they only sold 1,000 copies of a disc due to everyone downloading. But how do you know that the disc wouldn't have sold only 500 if nobody downloaded it?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

And if no one ever paid for music again, is the net loss $0?

1. No one ever argued for one-off situations. Mass-downloading/P2P is the problem, not face-to-face "check out this new band" copying.
2. Sneaking into a non-sold out concert is illegal. T-shirt or not, the venue didn't make the expected money off of you, the band didn't make the money off of you, and its a slap in the face to the concert-goers who shelled out their cash as well.
3. Stealing.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

This isn't what I'm arguing. I'm just showing why it's NOT the same as shoplifting or other types of theft, which is why I don't like seeing it compared that way.


The issue is not whether this is illegal or even whether or not it's some form of theft, it's whether or not this is killing musicians (or software developers). I just cited three examples of activities described as illegal, unethical, and selfish that directly benefit the artists involved.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

To all who made the mistake: Theft/stealing and copyright infringement are different concepts. Please try your best not to confuse the two.

Also it's maybe hard to accept for some musicians but they don't "own" anything. We (the public) merely granted them a temporary exclusive right (should be around 10 years, but due to lobbyism etc. 50+ years now) to market their creations. We do that because we want to hear more music in the future.

Fact: If you don't want people to hear your music, don't release it. Once an idea is out there, how do you want to stop it?

Another fact: There is no shortage of good music; so apparently the situation is not as bad as some people describe it. If you are a musician and nobody buys your album, maybe it isn't the fault of "The Pirate Bay", but maybe it's because the music is bad?