Re: Crunch
 

i love when rich people suffer.

Re: Crunch
 

that made me smile - BLD - thanks !

greed and entitlement has reached new
highs in this world. :mad:

Re: Crunch
 

Soup anyone?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26949764/

We're all gonna look like skinny Hollywood now.

Re: Crunch
 

here is an interesting video clip from 2 years ago with one analyst accurately predicting the current situation, you should really watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfascZSTU4o

(oh boy I wish i could see that Laffer guy's face right now if you showed him this clip)
i then watched a bunch of other clips on youtube with Peter Schiff from earlier this year and in almost every one he seems to be the only one in the panel talking that actually sees the crisis coming as we see it happening right now.
Now I don't know much about economy but this guy does seem to be one of the few who actually knows what he's talking about. There's a bunch of good articles on his company's website as well:

http://www.europac.net/

I must say I'm fascinated by what's happening to the US economy right now and if Schiff is right in his predictions the US are in for some downright scary scenarios, especially if the bailout plan goes trough in some form or another, since it does not address any of the underlying problems of the economy.

Re: Crunch
 

Unfortunately, this isn't about rich people suffering - it's about all of us. The market lost 1.3 trillion dollars yesterday. That's not just the money of rich people, that's all of our retirement accounts, investments, etc. disappearing at a rate of, if I remember what I heard correctly, 2 billion dollars a minute yesterday afternoon.

That aside, I can't say I love it when "rich people suffer", myself. I guess I never associated "rich" with "bad". I've known many rich people who are very good indeed, and don't deserve to suffer any more than the rest of us non-rich folks do.

Personally, I don't like the idea of bailing out these companies that have created the problem we're in to begin with. But as far as I can tell, not bailing them out would actually hurt all of us even more than what happened yesterday. We need to do it smart and fast.

Re: Crunch
 

Ugh...NO. NO MONEY. BAD SEAN. VERY BAD!

These companies need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Yeah, it might suck for a little while, but if you don't want to see 3/4 of a trillion of our hard earned money pissed away by executives looking to line their pockets, then you'll piss and moan to stop this bill from getting passed.

Look, unemployment is at 7% right now. That means over 90% of Americans have jobs. That's right about average. It's not wonderful and sunny, but shit, it's not like it was in the real depression, where unemployment was at 40-50%. The median household income is just below record levels. Oil dropped $10 a barrel in one day. In the states, we could be buying gas for $2.25/gal again by this time next year. Now is the time to get into real estate and investments if you have the means. All this talk about how we're all going to lose our life savings because of this is just hysterics. Investors are jumpy and bad at adapting to short term unpleasantness.

I like Lou's idea:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/30/dobbs.qa/index.html

Re: Crunch
 

Ron Paul's economic adviser. So essentially Ron Paul.

Re: Crunch
 

I really don't know. I mean its straight fascism. Everyone on the talking head network is calling it socialism in this smug antipathy towards the free market and capitalism, but it would only be socialism if we did what Beautiful Burnout described happening in the UK. Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac are just owned by the government. This is fascism.

I'm willing to even look past that detail if its pragmatically going to help out. But when you have the people who called this from the beginning, when everyone else was laughing in their faces, saying that the bail out is bad, I have to say its worth some investigation.

As Ron Paul asked. do you want a bad couple of years or do you want a bad decade?

Re: Crunch
 

Frankly, I know very little about this kind of stuff, so I'm going mostly from the gut and from what I've been able to understand on the news on this one. So understand that this is just one semi-ignorant man's opinion.

Which is why I say I think it has to be done smart - meaning in a way that doesn't allow them to line their pockets with the bailout money.

This actually runs counter to some of what I've been hearing and seeing. For one, every time CNN had their money people come on to answer questions yesterday, the answer to the question "should I start investing in the stock market right now?" was a resounding "are you crazy? NO!" And while it would be good to get into real estate, it's kind of hard to when you can't get a loan, which is what some friends of mine who I know have good credit and incomes in the low six-figure range are finding right now. And that difficulty seems to me like it'll continue until the banks are in a position to safely lend, which won't happen without some kind of action being taken.

I guess I should say here that I have no idea if the $700 billion plan was the "right" plan or not, but SOMEthing has to be passed now to keep us from moving towards a situation that does more closely resemble the great depression. And that of course would mean some serious reforms in addition to any bailout plan.

Re: Crunch
 

sarcasmo, you need to study economics.

First, the depression was 20-25% unemployment at its peak ( US figures ), the average over the period was about 12%-15%. We are over half way there, and employment figures are coming friday which could be about 8%.

Second, oil prices going down is not necessarily a good thing. Supply has not increased by 1/3 therefore the drop in price can only be attributed to a rapid decrease in demand. Do you think this is because all of a sudden the world turned 'green'? No, it is because the world is facing a HUGE industrial slowdown and no longer needs oil in the amounts of just a year ago.

Third this is not about bailing out the greedy mortgage brokers and bond insurers. On the contrary, this is about maintaining the worlds economy. There is no money to lend, and like it or not, it takes credit to make things work. I work for a company that has a TON of cash. Unfortunately, or clients (construction and engineering) are dependent on lines of credit to by raw production materials. They can't operate, my company goes into a slow down. Our wages (profit sharing, 401k match, etc. . . ) deteriorate. Wages go down, we spend less. not just on frivolity, but on things that we need. This spirals and feeds on itself.

Money in and of itself is not bad. It is just capacitance of economic potential. In other words, it is only the ability to carry and exchange work between parties. In exchange for some work that you have done, I do some work for you. Instead of exchanging actual labor, you exchange with me money that you earned by performing labor elsewhere, or that you earned by investing into some value adding enterprise.

Money isn't bad.
Greed is bad

Re: Crunch
 

one thing I like about dirty is how no one starts their posts with functionless condescending remarks. makes a distinct difference between itself and the software development forums I read out of necessity. where people are obviously skipping showers in order to make the time to make devastating attacks on people's intelligence so they can proudly say "so I said [insult]" to their plastic real doll that night.

Re: Crunch
 

ALMOST no one...

Anyway, maybe I was completely wrong. Although they are saying that the rise was due to confidence that a bailout deal would be reached by weeks end.

Re: Crunch
 

Has anyone else been able to read this? financialservices.house.gov.

Re: Crunch
 

I am assuming that you are being sarcastic. In my defense, I started with a conjecture. Made three supporting arguments (full of typos, I admit:o.) And finished with a conclusion.

I'm thinking that it is just a rebound based on 'bargain' hunting by unsophisticated investors spurred by shorts picking up their marks.

Note, it hit the 10800 resistance; if it goes through to 11000 it should hold on confidence. My bet, it is back down to 10300 by friday. If we break through 10200 it will fall to 9900.

Re: Crunch
 

yes it fuckin is! the time has come for a great change in world economics.... if this, and other, 'bail-outs' occur in the form that has been put forward then the people with the money will not suffer, they will learn nothing except they can rip us all off at will and we will get more of the same.

Re: Crunch
 

It was regulatory failure.

Eight years of lassez-faire (sp?) policy by a collusive presidency allowed this to happen.

The "people with money" will hurt a little but they will weather the storm. The people without will be the ones that suffer.

Re: Crunch
 

Sounds like the ultimate gun to our heads.

I don't care if the rich are doing well. I only care if the rest of us are doing bad.

I just lost one of my longest standing clients this morning - a family business of 25+ years went bust. And only a fortnight ago, another one ceased trading.

Just hoping things don't snowball.

Re: Crunch
 

i'm with you, rog. Granted I have to appeal to authority for my opinion. But I'm also appealing to arguments that make the most common sense (to me). Either way this bailout is wrong.

Check this chick out. Whether you agree with the bailout or not. She's going to succeed in getting you pissed the fuck off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S27yitK32ds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbD62gNi9WE&feature=related

Re: Crunch
 

I am not for a bailout that puts the onus on the taxpayers. I am anything but that. My argument is something has to be done. Any action taken must protect the common man and not reward credit insurers, mortgage bankers etc.

But this is not about bailing them out, its about preventing their maleficence from destroying everyone (which it will). At the same time, addressing the US executive branch regulatory malfeasance.

Any argument that says "money is bad! Let 'em all burn" is infantile. Now is the opportunity to fix things. Its the carrot-stick approach - "Ok, here's the money, but in order to get it, we are going to have some significant rule changes!" Then we investigate and prosecute the perpetrators.

If we do nothing, the greedy rich will remain rich, though they may feel a slight pinch. When things begin to rebound, which inevitably it will, it will be only the guys who screwed it up that will have the resources to benefit from it. Meanwhile, everything will be drained from the poor.

If you listen to Rep. Kaptur, she doesn't say do nothing, she is saying what we do has to be done in a manner that protects the people. At the same time she says we have to do something.

The only other alternative is to create a world war.

Re: Crunch
 

Wow. I agree with this last post from bas_I_am. I think that's a first for me...;)

Re: Crunch
 

Sean. . . believe it or not all, idealogically there is ALOT we agree on. I think at times we may look at certain events from a different angle.

For example, on Ahmedajan (or how ever you spell it) - I think alot of what we hear that he says is coming through filters. Filters with agendas. When fox news/bush/anti-defamation league says that he advocates "wiping Israel from the map" I question the filter. Everytime I have investigated, I find that what he said is he advocates the disillusion of Israel as a political state and returning power to the people of palestine. Yes, I guess you could extrapolate it means "wiping Israel from the map" as there would not be a political boundary on the globe denoted as Israel, but I would contend that his tone is completely different from the inflamatory rhetoric injected via partisan filters.

There are two sides to every story. . and then there is the truth

Re: Crunch
 

See, we do need women* priests. At least in the financial church of In God We Trust.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26963309/







*I got into trouble again.

Re: Crunch
 

well said. I think we have more common ground than not. My arguments against the bailout come more from the perspective of what it is now, and how it is being dealt with, not what it could be and how it could be better dealt with.

Re: Crunch
 

In a sense, you've negated yourself.

Re: Crunch
 

I'm shaking.

Re: Crunch
 

Yeah, I've also been watching and reading Paul's reaction to the crisis and the bailout and again I'm not an economy expert but his story does seem to make the most sense out of all the stories that I'm reading and hearing about this.

Ron Paul for president! ;)

Re: Crunch
 

Please elaborate

Re: Crunch
 

:|

I have nothing other than a blank stare at the moment. Have to get back to ya on that.

Re: Crunch
 

jOHN is Sarah Palin and I claim my £5.

Re: Crunch
 

VERY GOOD DECKARD!!!!

I need to apologize for that comment.

I had no intentions of deterring our troops spirit. It's been bothering me how our situation in Iraq seems to have slipped everyone's mind what with all the money talk here back home. I have a (-) balance currently, so all these large firgures being throw around drive myself a bit absent minded and quick on the tongue while we have husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and most of all friends away from home.

Sincerest apology to everyone.

Re: Crunch
 

I dunno if it has been mentioned in this thread or not, and I am frankly far too tired and lazy to troll back through it all to check, but did anyone comment on the fact that $700 billion - the amount Paulson is proposing - is exactly the amount that the Iraq war is estimated to have cost the US so far?

Bizarre coincidence, eh? ;)

Re: Crunch
 

YOU ALWAYS IGNORE ME!

Re: Crunch
 

So I'm sure "world" isn't the appropriate forum to ask, but jOHN, are you on serious drugs these days or what? Seriously, I just don't understand what's happened to you....

Re: Crunch
 

Riiiiight.

Re: Crunch
 

i never said money is bad:confused: but let them burn yes! just because i disagee with your monied view its infantile? these people bought us to this point and now they want our money to save them well fuck em! and fuck global capitalism|! the greedy bastards who bought this on us deserve the whole rotten system to go down and i won't be crying if it does.....even if i will be poorer. maybe less poor people will be exploited in the future by these scumbags.

Re: Crunch
 

Word!

I can agree with you, even if I am sitting on a Northern Rock mortgage here. :D

I am absolutely not of the view that money is bad. It is what you do with it. Use it to create wealth from the suffering of other people, and you deserve everything you get. Use it to make the world a better place, and hats off to you.

But these gits are the Scrooge McDucks of the world and they are coming quacking to government to provide funds from the coffers filled by ordinary hard-working joes because they made themselves very rich and suddenly the golden goose isn't paying out any more. Cry me a fucking river...

Meanwhile, they all have offshore accounts and tax havens up to the earholes to avoid paying tax themselves. Poor things. Must be hard to cut down to only one tin of beluga caviar a week...

Re: Crunch
 

Awwww... I don't ignore you. I am just getting absent-minded in my old age! If you posted about this and I didn't remember, please forgive me.

Sean - jOHN likes to have a bit fun with his posts. I don't see anything wrong in that, really. I guess one could always seriously ignore him if one thinks he is getting tedious or weird, but I like a bit of light entertainment after a hard day :D

Re: Crunch
 

Yeah, I think CEO's are pissed at me too.

Re: Crunch
 

Don't want to hijack the thread - as it's a good one. But have to agree with Sean on this one - and for me John's interjections do get a little tedious.

I always imagine this as a spoken conversation - that we're around a table and we come and go between tables/threads to add our piece, after listening to what others have to say. Sometimes we react vehemently, sometimes we're droll, sometimes we totally misread someone's comments.

John's commentary - as I imagine it in my head - spoken out loud - is generally irrelevant, with regards to the conversation that's taking place. (And yeah, I know there's a whole 'nother thread of therapy about why I'm imagining all these voices in my head. :))

Not disrespecting JR as an individual or a human - let's just say I've got a JR darktrain filter that works very well. I don't use the ignore function. It just makes these conversations seem even more dislocated.

I suppose I'm being an old bugger by thinking that most here would talk/explain themselves in the online form, much like they would in the real life form - and so I'm naturally confused by many of JR's comments.

Back on topic.

How is the bailout failure affecting you?

Some interesting thoughts here, particularly with the long term view - and asking the valid question - how will it directly affect little old me.

I've been cutting back on some expenditure, being a bit more prudent with car use - I'm lucky enough to own my house - and payments are well under control. To be honest most of those cost cutting measures have been as a result of the oil price hikes over the winter. So all before this collapse.

That and the fact that I'm due to become a Dad for the first time in March of next year - it changes how you view the important things.

What you need to know - Bailout 101

A good summary with linkage there too.

Re: Crunch
 

It will come full circle in the near future chuck.

Thanks for the link BTW.

Love the last paragraph.


Rebuttal:
tedious - tiresome because of length or dullness. Neither apply to me, you'll need to find a new word I guess.(I want my damn smiley things back)