Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

i'll concede that point.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

This should get interesting: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26891725/

1.3 million raised for such wasted effort for ignorance. I just don't get how gays can make a mockery of marriage anymore than some have done with it. Oh wait, there were money gains invovled with those events.

Maybe if these same people focused efforts on things like, say, maybe, THIS: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26843836/ , I mean, it's just maybe the third occurance in a 12 month period.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Absolutely spot-on. Year after year we hear more stories of kids being abused by men of the cloth. To use their own analogy, they should deal with the beam in their own eye before criticising the speck in someone elses.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

How many false flags do we need to see?

The pieces of the puzzle are all there. How long for these religious(and corporate for that matter) organizations to see they've been infiltrated as well?

One has to wonder who's known all this time? Silence assists the killer.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

O.K., I thought gays guys were supposed to be the drama queens: http://tv.yahoo.com/show/33812/news/...tner__ER:46779

Somebody get the bitch a bridesmaid's dress already.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I used to think Shatner was like a cheesier version of Hasselhoff but without the 'problems'.

Now I'm not so sure...

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

according to andrew sullivan, something like 77% of all campaign donations towards the proposition to ban same sex marriage via constitutional amendment in california is coming from the mormon church and its members.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...s-vs-civi.html

leaving the church just isn't satisfying enough.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I guess, in a sense, there's a certain reassurance that comes from that statistic.

But still.... frustrating for you, I know.

And just, like, completely bizarre. Do threats get any less threatening than a bunch of gays just wanting to get married? To judge some people's reactions, you'd think we were the second-biggest danger after terrorism. :confused:

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Who people distrust and feel threatened by doesn't seem to be based on reason. We don't have to look any further than this opposition to same sex marriage, the widespread distrust of atheists, the hesitancy by many to support a black man for President, or worse yet, a Muslim black man! :eek::rolleyes: It's sad how ignorant, angry, and fearful so many people are.

I relly hope prop 8 fails.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

you know, the way i see it, it's not the government's job to define what a marriage is— it's basically the job of the church. the church is where marriage comes from— it is defined in the bible, and it is a sacrament, and to cede that power from the churches violates the seperation of church and state. it would be like the government trying to define what constitutes a baptism, and trying to give hindus the right to baptize. even though they are baptized, they still aren't accepted by the church because they're hindus, so it's not a real baptism.

i, do, however, believe in civil unions, which means that they have every right a married couple does except it is not called marriage. they can file taxes jointly, they can visit each other in the hospital, they have spousal confidentiality in court, etc. unlike marriage, i believe this is a civil right that should be mandated all over the country. i just do not think that the government should force churches to recognize a civil union as a marriage.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I agree that the government shouldn't force any religion to recognize marriage between same sex couples, or anyone else the religion doesn't want to recognize. But the court decision that started all of this doesn't force anyone to do anything. It simply opens the state government's recognition of legal marriage to include same sex couples. What the church or any other religious group decides to do about it is strictly up to them. But now (unless prop 8 passes) if a religion decides that they want to allow marriage for same sex couples, then those couples will be able to enjoy the legal benefits of being married just the same as my wife and I do. Previously, they could have a marriage ceremony and call themselves married, but they weren't legally recognized as such by the state government. It's just about making equal rights available, not mandates on religions.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

which is why the name marriage should not be applied to civil unions.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

[QUOTE=bryantm3;104338]you know, the way i see it, it's not the government's job to define what a marriage is— it's basically the job of the church. the church is where marriage comes from— it is defined in the bible, and it is a sacrament, and to cede that power from the churches violates the seperation of church and state. it would be like the government trying to define what constitutes a baptism, and trying to give hindus the right to baptize. even though they are baptized, they still aren't accepted by the church because they're hindus, so it's not a real baptism.

QUOTE]


So are you saying marriage did not exist before The Bible was written?

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

OK, here is what I consider to be a good proposed constitutional amendment to codify marriage on biblical principles:

No arguing or challenging this please. It's a sacrament.

And should Churches start taking their holy book more seriously/literally, and imposing these rules, and if enough people are actually willing to buy into it all, then we should leave everyone to it and not try to change it - separation of church and state, and all that.... ;)

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Can I just be a slut?

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

You go right ahead jOHN. Don't mind us.... :D

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

How much?

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

You're too young, I wouldn't even let you pay.

per edit: I swear, that was always supposed to read "even" from the get go, I'm not a chicken-hawk.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

So then are you saying that even if a particular religion announces that they will recognize and perform same sex marriages, you still think the government (state or federal) should not recognize those marriages legally? Or are you saying that marriage in general, straight or gay, should only be recognized as "civil unions" by the government. Sorry....I'm just having trouble following what your reply here means. I never said anything about applying the name "marriage" to a civil union - I'm talking about actual marriage, period.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

all of those, except the one referring to divorce, come from the old testament.
when jesus was born, he fufilled the law and there was no longer purpose for the restrictive laws in the old testement, such as animal sacrifice, kosher laws, laws for beating your children, against homosexuality, etc. they became null and void and the laws were replaced by grace... Romans 4-6 discusses this in length:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...6;&version=31;

the one verse omitted from your examples, of course, is in Mark, referring to divorce.

here is another instance where jesus states that the old law is no longer valid but the law of grace, or love, takes its place. the church still teaches that divorce is wrong for this reason. the old testament is primarily used for historical purposes and tracing various miracles throughout the years rather than as strict law.

but then again, you're the expert.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

LOL, no not at all. You've missed the point.

Rewriting and reinterpreting according to the tolerances of the different ages has been a continuous component of Christianity. It wasn't too long ago that Christians were using the Bible - the NEW Testament - both to keep women from voting ("Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, not to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." - 1 Timothy 2:11) and to condone slavery ("Slaves, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward." - 1 Peter 2:18). Guess what? As public attitudes changed, people found it increasingly difficult to ignore what their own minds were telling them, and gradually decided to "reinterpret" what was previously regarded as unambiguous dogma. If Christianity is still around in 200 years time, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see gay marriage accepted, and the rules re-interpreted once again - or even re-worded, like the way 'Slaves' has since been changed to 'Servants' in that latter verse – to accomodate the more enlightened general outlook of people.

Let's face it, I've yet to read any convincing reasons to oppose the marriage of two people of the same sex other than religious ones - that it says so in the Bible/Quran/etc. Though I'd be interested to hear any non-religious arguments put forward.

Genuinely I don't mean to sound arrogant, but when it comes to justifying moral positions, Christians might as well quote me the script of a Spiderman comic. In fact at least in that I might expect to see some of the fruits of the last 1000-2000 years of enlightenment thought, of knowledge and progress (much as I appreciate that some of the 'nicer stuff' in the New Testament was to some degree ahead of its time).

The point though is, not only are the rules of these holy books conceived entirely by man rather than some God or other, but also that they're on a continuous path of being reinterpreted according to what is acceptable at any given time, and the issue of gay marriage appears to represent one such transitionary issue.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I think most religious people also tend to forget that many of the religious teachings from 2000 years ago when the New Testament was being written were based on specific needs of the time. I mean let's face it - we just don't have the same problems with leprosy today that they were having back in those days. And in my personal opinion, the rules and laws surrounding marriage are an example of this when you look at them from a practical point of view. As one example, marriage used to be more about procreation because numerous hands were needed around the home/farm/family business to survive. That's simply not the case today. At this point in history, what I personally find to be important is that marriage, be it between a man and a woman, or two women, or two men, needs to be founded on love and mutual respect, and taken seriously. As I've said before in this thread, it serves a huge and important social purpose, and I just want to see it, as well as the people who wish to take part in it, treated with the thoughtfulness they deserve.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

http://www.kcra.com/cnn-news/17964159/detail.html

Remember that thing called Seperate, But Equal.

Same difference.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I obviously don't agree with gay marriage.

However, in terms of this law, then I see no problem with it. Why? Because the whole system of law in the United States is based on Democracy, and not any sort of religious law. Simply put, Democracy is the rule of the people, and if enough people want to allow gay marriage, then there should be no problem with that.

Now, say if here in Morocco, they decided to allow gay marriage I would have a serious problem with that. This is because here they are supposed to base their laws on Islaam, and this would be a clear violation of the laws of Islaam.

I don't think that it is correct for any state in the United States to define marriage as because this definition is based on some religious belief, and such things should not play a role in United States politics, according to the system of the United States.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Re. US - that's fair enough, and broad-minded of you. Of course it still sucks if you're homosexual and through random chance happen to be born in Morocco rather than the US, with no money to move abroad... but then to me that points to the merits of democracy rather than to any inconsistency on your part.

Btw, is that a fairly new thing, spelling Islaam with a second a (like how it should be pronounced) or is it really spelled like that elsewhere?

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Spelling things with a more grammatical lean has been going on for a few years amongst the people who read and make an attempt to pronounce things correctly. I have books published from 1999 that have it spelled Islaam, so it isn't all that new.

With regards to this in general with the religious standpoint: In Islaam homosexuality is a major sin. Islaam does not teach that you are born a homosexual, as then you would be born a sinner, and this is goes against the teachings of Islaam.

That being said, Islaam also teaches us that no one is perfect and everybody sins. However, one should not publically flaunt their sins. This is where the main issue of gay marriage would lie, because now you would be publically announcing that so-and-so are together and in doing so, you would now be subject to the 'law'.

As to the merits of democracy, well that is a whole other thread...

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

um... I think he meant that the system is satanic, so let it be further satanic, which isn't really broad minded as it is defeatist and condemning.

not that I'm trying to attack you, myrrh, but that is what you meant, right?

glad to see you back around.

edit: ah yes, that's better. my sarcasm detector was turned off

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

And are you implying Gay Love is satanic?

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Man, I'm at the edge of my seat waiting for this response.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Yeah, Strangelet! Do you think that gay people are little satan babies?!?!? I'm waiting with bated breath to hear what a hateful gay-basher you are, because obviously, to anyone with(out) a brain, that's what you were saying!!!!! :rolleyes:

Why oh why do I ever override my ignore settings? :confused:

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

hey jOHN,

can you just send your antagonisms to me in pm? you'll still have all the fun but you don't have to bother everyone else. I mean imagine a world where people don't dial in to dirty to read your goadings. Its the world we fucking live in, mate.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

no, no, no, no, no.

Let us make EVERYTHING a public discussion. Enough with the Wizard of Oz bit.


HEADS UP: that's not my quote?????

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

I think this is what's happening. I might be wrong.

"OMG, it's a gay guy, who talks back. And it kind of makes sense. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE."


I'm just kidding and being antagonistic. I think. Let's wait to see what I'm told I am.


I'm gonna make a cup of tea in the mean time.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Either you are the world's biggest B or you saying I've rested my case.

Let's let it brew folks, they'll be baaaaaack.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Well, I didn't it mean it like that, I just simply meant that it was the system of the US. To say it is satanic would mean that the leaders would be holding meetings in the middle of the night out in the woods where they call each other by mythical names and conduct activities that are so secret that they can't talk about them.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

lol sweet answer.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Oh come on, talk some shit to me.

I mean, I'm just this gay guy who's been right about everything that's been going wrong.

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Haha :D

Re: California overturns ban on same-sex marriage
 

Cut & paste rocks.