Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

DINGDINGDINGDING tell him what he's won, Bob!

I love life and I love babies. To be honest, the thought of an abortion and the inherent irresponsibility that figures into the decision to get one in most cases turns my stomach. It's people making stupid decisions, and then following up their stupid decisions with a terrible solution to their problems, that's what most abortions end up being.

But of course, you have the isolated cases where a woman is assaulted and impregnated, and other rare exceptions. I had a friend in college that was raped while on vacation and became pregnant, and she went and got an abortion. And as you can imagine, my support for her and her situation was unwavering because of the absolute vileness of circumstances. To be pro-life politically would mean to usurp her choice to abort a pregnancy which was created out of evil means, and that's not an option as far as I'm concerned.

But on a more philosophical and sociological slant... it's kind of hard for me to be pro-life when I see case after case of the stupidest people popping out kid after kid. It's garbage genes coming together, and once the baby is born it's going to be garbage food, garbage education, garbage nurturing, all offered generally in garbage surroundings. So it's no surprise that once baby grows up they generally turn out to be a piece of garbage. And many of the checkpoints that the human race had to go through in centuries/millenniums past are now gone. Due to technology, medicine and other factors, the weak are now surviving along with the strong, and their crap genes are spreading and dumbing everyone down. And as much as I hate to say it, I believe that abortion is one way that the spreading of bad genetics is getting slowed down.

Sorry, I've just been on a big kick lately about de-evolution.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

But wait minute, it's the supposed intellectual, high-society people with alot of money that have been making decisions during the past decade that have fucked the country all the way close to hell. No?

I guess they just don't LOOK like garbage, huh?*

*Please refer to my song of the day.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I don't think that too much that has happened on Capital Hill, or in Visa's HQ, or the mortgage industry has swung too fiercely on how John Q. Public would benefit. Financially speaking the focus has been more on interest and opening new accounts, though it didn't seem to strike the mortgage sector that if they gave loans to people buying max house on min income that they would default entirely. Major credit cards also made the same mistake of giving people credit when they absolutely didn't deserve it, and gave them astronomical interest rates on top of it. But all they saw was what would happen when everyone paid on their interest, they didn't see people going belly-up.

These were bad decisions, based on an irresponsible level of greed and profiteering. I wouldn't equate bad decisions to low intelligence though. Not to mention, it doesn't really bother me much that banks were willing to go bonanza on subprime lending, what bothers me is that there were many uninformed consumers out there that thought that they were actually a good idea.

Industries that deal with credit being one example of the general fuckery of the state of the union in the past 10 years.

EDIT: I'm not following why this thread is about being pro-life and pro gay rights, aside from political affiliation in the more extreme cases. It would seem that these are 2 stances that are generally made independent of each other.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Umm, I wasn't referring to the economy, though it can still apply IMHO(this acronym now rocks).


Oh, and in regards to your edit. I think he's referring to that "i" word again. I think.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

My original post was posted as I was running out the door and originally said something like fhwgads, so I thought a question mark was more appropriate. I'm definitely not backing down, but it's obvious Cacophony is not going to change her mind, and it's obvious I'm not going to change mine, and since we've both stated our points clearly, I don't think it's necessary to let it degrade to a point where feelings are hurt and people are upset— this is an internet forum, not capitol hill. I do appreciate your support, however. :)

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Oh shit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31528426/ns/us_news-faith/

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Well then, we'll need fhwgads defined.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

heh! the thick will inherit the world and they're fuckin welcome to it!:D

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

You and me both. One of the reasons I love the movie "Idiocracy".

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

medical experts would disagree with you. our character's life was never at risk for dying until 33 1/2 weeks, when suddenly her health took an unfortunate turn. at that point the babies were viable.

your statement would actually result in more unnecessary abortions, not fewer, because if you looked at the hypertension at 20 weeks and determined that might lead to the life threatening condition later, you'd end up aborting two very viable babies.

the point is, you can't predict every complication. and because you can't screen or predict every complication unforseen medical expenses will result, and long term (possibly life-long) health consequences may result for both mom and baby. how do "pro-lifers" intend to deal with these circumstances in the real world? no "pro-lifer" has ever been able to adequately address this issue.

oh well that's a realistic expectation. if human beings are good at anything, it's resisting sex. :rolleyes:

wishing for an inhuman world doesn't solve the human problem.

are you a virgin?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

if i saw you at the starbucks on haynes bridge i wouldn't spit in your coffee. ;)

seriously, though, i don't think your opinion is well thought out. i think you mean well but i don't think you're considering the real world and the actual medical practicalities. if you have you could address the situation i described and how the medical practicalities should be handled, and what the morality is of condemning a woman to a lifetime of health consequences, i would feel more assured that you were putting forth a well thought out, informed position.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Now you'll need to define that one.

Esp. after the many "Abstinence Only" lectures, which a few I've been to, we've been teaching the last generation.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

WELL I AIN'T TALKING ABOUT DOING IT IN THE EAR!!!




:D

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

What were you referring to? I don't think I've been following you from the start.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Well, my whole point was that if abortion is absolutely necessary, it's still available in every state under those 3 conditions, and for other reasons you can travel outside of your state and have an abortion done, it's just a lot less convenient, giving a disincentive for having an abortion, allowing the mother to think about other options that may be available. I'm certain that not all 50 states will ever entirely ban abortion. I have thought this out over a very long period of time and have come to the conclusion that the amount of people who have abortions out of convenience outnumbers the amount of people who have it done because they're in danger of losing their life. I know you're arguing that there are many different cases, but allowing individual states to decide both gives a considerable disincentive to those considering abortion out of convenience, while still allowing those who really feel there is no other way out, like in your special cases, to have an abortion in a different state.

if it helps prove my point, i'll specifically respond to the situation you posed

I know that there is no realistic way to prevent people from having sex before marriage. It would be great if things were that simple, but they aren't, and situations like this do happen a lot. I won't give a lecture about 'they shouldn't have been having sex' because it is so common that to dismiss this situation is to dismiss the entire problem. Therefore, the rest of my argument assumes that situations like this can and do happen.

this is exactly the reason that i support a premium based voluntary national health care plan, and the reason that i support s-chip (minus the crooked cigarette lobbyist addition 'tax loose cigarette tobacco $50 a pound while taxing cigarettes only $1 a pack to run competitors out of business... but that's a whole different story.) and medicare programs to pay for the bills people have to encounter in situations like this.

i have heard others argue that 'you pay when your car gets repaired, why not pay to go to the doctor?' the reality is that medical costs are completely unreasonable and it's turned into the biggest racket ever created by mankind, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for people to get treated. pregnancy is only one of the things that needs to be covered under such a plan. however, after the health care bill is passed and matt and mary cannot afford a health care payment, they almost certainly can apply for medicaid, which does pay for pregnancy costs.

in addition, at this point, if mary's life was in danger, the doctor could perform an abortion. if mary's life was not in danger and she felt she had no other option, she could have matt drive her out of state and get an abortion.


this is where we get down to a moral issue rather than a practical issue. why should they pay the cost, even if they could afford it? they should because it's their child. and i'm not being judgmental— there's a two year old at our church that has a terrible heart defect and is having to have thousands of dollars of surgery. why do his parents want to pay that amount of money? because it's their child. they want to do everything they can to save him. whether they've seen their child or not, it's still their child. it doesn't change the fact that he is still a human being.

if they are on medicaid, the taxpayers are already paying it. and to be honest, i think $500,000 for a child whose parents are under the poverty line is a much better use of money than building a $200 million bridge in alaksa- that's why medicaid isn't a mainstream political football.

more later, have to go.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Well, let's see. We're talking about pro-life. Yet our country is involved in two wars that are ending human life (American lives folks). Wars that started based on lies, or no wait - unintended or accidental choices.

Not to deter from the thread, of course. Yet, I'd love to see how many people on the pro-life(anti-abortion) front were so willing to start this mess accidentally.

I know, I'm just stirring shit. But hey, when in Rome.

Of course not, but, ya know, studies show kids these days don't believe doing it in the (?)ear is sex. I'm not making this up.

My damn mouse thingy is all fucked up too, so if some of my posts appear like I'm drunk, it's not me.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Our inability to predict all of the complications that can arise in a pregnancy is unfortunate, but the option of abortion beyond a certain stage of development seems like a frail attempt at keeping humans empowered. Its good to have options, but ending lives past a certain stage of development in a calculated decision loses site of what the babymaking process is about. Life isn't perfect, and creating life isn't either... the fact that things can't be perfect does not justify ending a life. If a woman develops a complication that might end her life without endangering the life of her children, beyond whatever arbitrary point policymakers decide on, that is truly unfortunate. Babymaking is serious business. It would be good to focus on treating the mother, maximizing the amount of life that can be preserved with medical attention. Sometimes people die, though. That's life. Think about the consequences of your actions before you do them ie getting knocked up effecting your wallet and your health.

I buy into the ability to control your body under normal circumstances, but the body most affected by abortion is the fetus'. Sex and conception are in a realm beyond the individual person... mulitple parties civil liberties must be taken into account as well. I keep coming back to this point in my mind, as I write these responses, and I think that's where people who support the right to have an abortion (or the right to not be told you can't, more formally) and those who do not disagree... 'pro-choicers' view the fetus as an extension of the female form while 'pro-lifers' view the fetus as its own entity with its own rights.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

it doesn't require much thought to work that one out. In this world of over-population isn't it better to not bring yet another unwanted child into the world.....especially if you are poor.

I believe this is mainly a womens issue and it's up to the woman in the end to make her own choice and not some catholic men........

Incidently, which church are you a member of?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

That's where teh gays come in.
Serving the world since 1845. (BC)

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Bryantm3: youre saying that travelling out of state should be enough of a deterrent / lesson learned. But what if the whole of the USA bans abortion? Until youre in a relationship where your girlfriend/wife accidentally gets pregnant (believe me it can happen, pills and condoms arent 100%) or the baby has been scanned and is so mentally/physcially deformed, or is likely to cause problems that it will be still born, I dont see how you can judge the situation. Do you want to ban the morning-after pill also? how about contraception? Would you like no-sex-before-marriage to become law? Should people only have sex to pro-create? Where do you draw the line? Just how much freedom and civil liberty do you restrict in order to impose "moral values"? Moral values which usually have been written in religious scripts dating back centuries. Times change but religious beliefs dont, it seems.

I think that the decision to have an abortion should be the mothers and hers alone. The time up until she can make that decision, how many weeks pregnant is probably a medical one not a religious or political one. If there are two things which trample all over civil rights, its religion and politics and usually a combination of the two.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

LOL!

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

you automatically assume that most women who have abortions do so because their pregnancy becomes a danger to their own personal health. as i have stated time and time again, the doctor should be able to perform an abortion if the situation is like the one above. in addition, abortion doesn't magically get rid of birth defects in newborn children, as most children aborted are not aborted because of complications in childbirth:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

That poll, conducted in 2002 by the Alan Guttmacher Institute among women who had abortions, finds that 93% of women primarily had them because of convenience issues instead of significant health issues or other problems such as rape or incest. these abortions are what should be eliminated by disincentives, ie: making it more inconvenient to have an abortion. not every aborted child has a birth defect.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

stimpee, first of all, not every state is going to ban abortion. california? florida? new york? hell, even virginia and iowa would probably not ban abortion. get real. secondly, you're taking this way too far with your slippery slope argument. i previously stated that sex before marriage happens and it shouldn't be judged. it's not a great idea, but let's be realistic. why would i ban contraception when it prevents pregnancies in the first place?

the reason i want to allow individual states to ban abortion is because the child that has been conceived has the same rights as the mother does to live, and those that are so strongly pro-choice seem to either ignore this part of the argument or don't care. why does an unborn child not hold certain rights if he or she is alive? what is the difference between aborting a child out of convenience and 'aborting' a newborn child that you don't think you have the responsibility to take care of? my point is not to legislate 'morality', my point is to protect the rights of an unborn child to live because he or she cannot stand up for themselves. i would stand up for the rights of the mother and father to make choices if condoms were proposed to be banned, or if some of your other situations became true. i oppose abortion because one conception occurs, there is a third person involved and it seems that no one wants to respect the inalienable rights of that person.


I'm Episcopalian.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

And if that child turns out to be gay? What then?

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

It just seems to me that the issue of abortion is so peppered with legitimate physical health and psychological issues that it's virtually impossible to restrict it legally without causing someone serious injury in one form or another. I think most people would agree with the concern that too many abortions are based on decisions of convenience, so it's probably fair to say that this is largely an issue of educating the public about the potential consequences of irresponsible sex, about what abortion does to a fetus and mother, about what childbirth does to a mother, about contraception, about adoption, etc. No solution I've ever heard will be perfect, but the more we can find ways to guide people towards making responsible, mature decisions about the specific, personal situations they find themselves in, the more long-term positive affects we'll see. Simply legislating things like this just won't cut it in my opinion.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

wrong. so very very wrong.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

no, i'm not automatically assuming anything. i'm deliberately creating a scenario for you that falls out of the "knocked up irresponsible sinful slut deserves what she gets, damnit" category.

again, the problem with "pro-lifers" is that you want to make this an issue of responsibility and morality. but the fact is there are many things that happen in pregnancies that have nothing to do with responsibility and morality. the difference between me and "mary" is that i knew it was time to welcome a new life (lives) into my life, and i was willing to put my health on the line. and if there had been a complication like CP i was committed to seeing it through.

by and large the women who make it to delivery are women who are committed. it takes commitment to put your life and health on the line and face the unknown number of possible outcomes. a world where abortion is banned leaves unprepared and unwilling women to bear the burden of those consequences. you will see an increase of cost of complications passed on to taxpayers and you will see more children with congenital defects up for adoptions that WILL NEVER COME because the people who were not prepared to commit themselves to life in any form will have bailed out by then.

your world creates a ballooning population of needy babies for whom no one may be waiting to receive them with open arms. you create more wards of the state.

it's not about "kids with CP and DS are born every day." it's about the parents who are willing to commit to their care.

i've said this to my father in law (a raging "pro-lifer") and i'll say it to you: it's not about all of the scenarios you can think of. it's about the ones you can't. and it's about protecting the rights of people who fall into these minority categories becaues when you add up all of the minority categories you get a great big group of people who deserve to have the choice.

and as i've stated, this really shows your ignorance in sparkling clarity. the complications i described didn't manifest until after the current legal cutoff for abortions. by the time it became life threatening the babies were well into "viability." your statement basically says you'd open the door to MORE abortions during the time when anyone, even pro-choicers, could argue that it really is murder.

in an effort to protect the 12 week old embryos, you're willing to slaughter the 30 week viable lives. congrats, you really thought this one through.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

i'll be honest with you, i got confused and thought where you said the health problems were starting to occur was a little after the 8 week period, yet you posted 24 weeks. my mistake. from what i understand at even 23-24 weeks a child can be delivered prematurely via c-section and the remaining time can live in an incubator, therefore if the mother is having serious health problems before that time period, she can have an abortion, or if it's close enough to 24 or after 24 they can deliver the child, leaving no need for an abortion.

i know what you're talking about now. sorry for not reading your argument more thoroughly; i need to take more time with these responses, i'm writing them in 5 minute segments cos i've got a lot going on.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

then why is it okay to murc a little baby?!?! :eek:

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Because poor, garbage people don't want their accidental children to be used by intellectual, rich people to be killed in an accidental war they say god told them to start.

Or something.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Looks like you need to start from the top once again Cacophony....:rolleyes:

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

No you don't Ma.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Or, more reasonably, address the inconsistencies in what she is saying.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

how is that a response to my comment. you said pro-choicers think a baby is just an extension of the female form.

sorry, brotherman. i grew two babies. i can say unapologetically that you've got no clue what that's like and you can only speculate wildly about how women regard the lives that grow inside of them. at no point were either of those babies extensions of my body. that's what you're so totally wrong about. no, pro-choicers don't feel a baby grow inside of them and think "meh, whatever."

i teetered on the edge of liver failure for those babies and if given the choice i would have died so they could be born. and yet somehow i still believe the government has no right to hold my health hostage and i believe women should have the choice to control their own bodies.

it's a quandry but i don't expect you to understand. frankly you're never going to be able to experience the depth of emotion, you're going to have to speculate from afar and navelgaze over the philosophy of something that you will never ever ever be at risk for.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

yeah maybe i'm patting myself on the back but i think i've been rather eloquent and clear about my points. instead of getting actual responses to the scenarios i'm offering i'm getting a lot of "but people shouldn't have sex!" and "don't murder babies!"

okay. if you guys don't want to have a conversation about it that's fine. it's a lot easier to just stick to your position and ignore the complicated reality of the situation than to really ponder what this legislation would do to real people's lives.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

so you think a fetus is a unique human being (with civil liberties?) but also believe that ending the life of said fetus is only taking control of your own health?

you're gonna have to resolve that contradiction before i bother typing anything else. stop patting yourself on the back... you're typing a whole lot of nonsense disguised as contextual nuances.

'I got this great idea to start killing non-consenting organ matches so more people can be healthy. thoughts? Don't dare judge me, there are a bunch of complications and stuff.. you'll never understand it.'

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

don't put words in my mouth.

and also try not being an asshole about it. i've been very civil about this discussion and you've done nothing but respond with illogical platitudes. snap out of it and get your shit together and participate in an adult discussion.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

I'll take that as a "No."

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

Based on what I've read, this is an overly-simplified boiling down of what Cacophony's written to the point that it's a complete misrepresentation.

Frankly, despite being pro-choice myself, I've always had questions about people who say abortion is about a woman's right to control her own body for the same reason some here have pointed out. I always thought, "but this issue is about a fetus - a separate but dependent living entity". Of course the woman's body was obviously involved, but the "life" in question was that of the baby's. But after reading the detailed and thoughtful posts from Cacophony on this specific question here, I finally feel a better sense of understanding about it. You just don't hear about all the affects that childbirth can have on a woman's body as outlined in this thread very often. It seems that maybe you either haven't read, or haven't taken the time to really absorb the information that's been shared here IsiliRunite, and I for one have found it to be extremely enlightening.

Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
 

which is why i'm done with the conversation. if he's not even going to make a teeny effort to try to comprehend my point, which really means he's not reading anything i'm writing, then what's the point.

i get tired of investing effort into debates when people are too lazy to read and just keep parroting their point as though i'm on ignore.