New album or RiverRun

[Dirty0900]

From UWlive talk via Karl, there seems to be an album in the works rather then a RiverRun. Personally, i'd like to see a new album drop rather then a half hour mix of songs that could have been left to develop in to something more interesting. Theres plenty of stuff to go on, such as Bamboo, You Do Scribble, Strumpet, Always Loved A Film...

[qirex]

I hope it's an album as it's way easier to keep track of. I'm sure there are a million songs you guys all know about that have gotten released/leaked over the years that I don't have! Anyway, any new UW is great and it's definitely gotten me refreshing the uwlive page frequently.

[grady]

hmmm....a new RiverRun would be nice.

[khouri]

Like Underworld seem to be, I'm finding myself less concerned with the distinction between albums and EPs and digital releases etc. I don't think the music on OWB is that much more sophisticated than what was on the RiverRun releases. I like some songs on both, and I'm not crazy about some songs on both, you know?

What matters most to me is how easy the product is to actually OBTAIN.

[dubman]

hmm i mean anythings great but i'd prefer a riverrun.
albums seem to have these different rules where everything has to be polished to the nines and is this definite thing before it gets sent off.

riverruns are just so much more... dirty. 192 kpbs jam of 25-30 minutes of ideas a bit weird and made inseperable. in hindsight they were more fun to get into than the ensuing album.

[King of Snake]

I must say that overall I also preferred the Riverruns, esp part 2 and 3 over Oblivion with Bells.
But then I also prefer some stuff that doesn't get released over some that does.

[jose m]

Like Underworld seem to be, I'm finding myself less concerned with the distinction between albums and EPs and digital releases etc. I don't think the music on OWB is that much more sophisticated than what was on the RiverRun releases. I like some songs on both, and I'm not crazy about some songs on both, you know?

What matters most to me is how easy the product is to actually OBTAIN.

word !

[Sean]

What matters most to me is how easy the product is to actually OBTAIN.
EXACTLY!!!

[grady]

I find myself revisiting Pizza for Eggs and I'm a big sister..... a whole lot more frequently that I do Oblivion with Bells I just like the big block and flow of the tracks. I never bothered to split them and kept them as one piece.

But as others above have stated, any new material is nice, just as long as it's easily accessible.

[potatobroth]

imo OwB > any of the RiverRuns so I hope its a new album, for sure.

[potatobroth]

since when has new material not been accessible? why even mention that?

[bryantm3]

i didn't like the last album at all, vs. the riverruns, which i liked more, but not as much as a hundred days off. i hope the new album is good.

[holden]

Either is fine by me!

I like the immediacy of the RiverRuns, and was somehow more excited by their releases than OWB.

But a physical album or LP-length digital release does suggest more of a "finished product" rather than the bits and pieces that were mixed in the RR's.

i'm just happy hearing new Underworld regardless of where and how.

[Sean]

since when has new material not been accessible? why even mention that?Because of all the random releases of remixes and such that you could only get if you purchased a Japan itunes card through a false Japanese address...or only if you bought all the digital releases available on the website, despite the fact that I already bought all the physical vinyl versions of them. Just make the damn tracks available for purchase individually on the freakin' Underworld website! This awkward availability crap has really been turning me off of them.

[TheBang]

Don't forget:

EU only releases - Holding the Moth, Beautiful Burnout (R59 Live Mix Version)
Japan only releases - Boy, Boy, Boy and The Bells The Bells
Promo only releases - Crocodile (Pete Heller Dub)

[khouri]

And let's not forget one of the most essential Underworld releases, the 3-disc live in Japan, which was only available in Japan and then only in some kind of auction.

[dubman]

well that particular release was mean to be avaiable solely to those who were at the concert. you'd have to sign up right there and they'd send it out to you.
it was only when there was a surplus that they auctioned the rest off on ebay

i remember making it on the second wave but barely. waited 15 minutes for it to show up on a flaky internet connection and 2 minutes after i finally got mine they were all gone

[potatobroth]

Don't forget:

EU only releases - Holding the Moth, Beautiful Burnout (R59 Live Mix Version)
Japan only releases - Boy, Boy, Boy and The Bells The Bells
Promo only releases - Crocodile (Pete Heller Dub)

As for The Bells, The Bells, I bought that right off their site and pretty quickly after release. For Promo releases, c'mon. Those have been around forever. For singles being only overseas, we can't act like that hasn't been around forever either. Heck, I remember ordering singles from EU 10+ years ago. Electraglide's show was only avail for concert attenders and thus, it cannot be counted.

Live shows, Riverruns, and any released albums have been super easy to get (not counting the LHN dispatch issues.) There are a ton of one-offs on the site too.

I'd say its easier to get Underworld tracks/albums now, than it ever was. You may find one or two examples that prove otherwise, but considering that we are getting 10x more content than we did in the STITI days I'd say its going quite well.

[lowbit]

Count me in with those who would most like to see a new RiverRun -- OWB was good, but I find myself listening to the RR releases much more often.

If there's a new RiverRun, it would be nice to be able to buy it on disc or at least in a lossless format. (Ditto for the old RiverRuns, for that matter!)

[Champiness]

But a new album would still be nice: RiverRuns are interesting and experimental but never really seem to garner the same amount of excitement as a full-length. Plus, the RiverRuns in the past seem to be EP-length releases that hold a few keepers and side-longs (JAL To Tokyo, Peach Tree, AFFC, etc.) while making up the rest with some neat but forgettable ones (Dub Shepherd, Vanilla Monkey, Mowed Path, etc.). LPs can hold the same amount of creativity without the "this is experimental, that issue can stay in as an artistic statement" shrug-off attitude that goes with a, no pun intended, underneath-the-radar release. After all, they'll be subject to a far greater amount of critical scrutiny.

[Jan]

Don't ever call Vanilla Monkey "forgettable" again. :(

For me the RiverRuns were thousand times more exciting than the last album, because I feel that it was exactly what they wanted to put out at that time. I you haven't already, listen to PFE while watching the photos...

I'm sad that there wasn't as much critical response to the EPs as they deserved.
A reason for that might be the general preconception that those EPs consisted of "unfinished" or "unpolished" tunes... and were merely "goodies". It makes me sad every time I read a sentence like that here.

Many people seem to expect a second dubno or STITI or whatever, but what's the point? If I want dubno I listen to dubno. They have to move forward... and the RiverRun project was just that. The album... not so much. Something seemed to hold them back (except for the last third + Loads of Birds, which could easily have been another RiverRun).

In answer to the original question, I think they should release a longer RiverRun in form of an album.

[dubman]

seriously, what
vanilla monkey was the best part of the whole riverruns thus far

[potatobroth]

So we all like different stuff. I personally like OwB more than RRs. Others like the opposite. I just love hearing new stuff.

If Mamgu and Faxed Invitation appeared on a RR, I may be posting a different view here.

[holden]

I(f) you haven't already, listen to PFE while watching the photos...

I'm sad that there wasn't as much critical response to the EPs as they deserved.
A reason for that might be the general preconception that those EPs consisted of "unfinished" or "unpolished" tunes... and were merely "goodies". It makes me sad every time I read a sentence like that here.

Many people seem to expect a second dubno or STITI or whatever, but what's the point? If I want dubno I listen to dubno. They have to move forward... and the RiverRun project was just that. The album... not so much. Something seemed to hold them back (except for the last third + Loads of Birds, which could easily have been another RiverRun).

In answer to the original question, I think they should release a longer RiverRun in form of an album.

I haven't ever watched all the slides as the albums played...meant to, but didn't find the time - anyway, i did most of my RR listening on the move, rather than in front of the computer, so the tracks had a different visual aspect for me.

I agree with what you've written above. Despite the general consensus that the RR tracks were snippets or unfinished, we know that tseveral tacks were in the works for some time. Each RR has a very unique "feel" or genre, if you will. Whereas OWB is a bit of everything, i think the RR mixes work better as unified wholes.And i too would like an album-long mix with a consistent feel.

[Buji]

I would personally prefer to hear a new album, but would love a riverun too!

It's the albums that got me into Underworld in the first place and I think the pressure to make an album great brings out the best. Also any tracks that don't make the cut or fit in with the album can still be used on a riverun.

The great thing about this debate is that we are going to get some new Underworld music soon anyway so I am very pleased!
:)



www.myspace.com/easydelicmusic

[Champiness]

Don't ever call Vanilla Monkey "forgettable" again. :(

For me the RiverRuns were thousand times more exciting than the last album, because I feel that it was exactly what they wanted to put out at that time. I you haven't already, listen to PFE while watching the photos...

I'm sad that there wasn't as much critical response to the EPs as they deserved.
A reason for that might be the general preconception that those EPs consisted of "unfinished" or "unpolished" tunes... and were merely "goodies". It makes me sad every time I read a sentence like that here.

Many people seem to expect a second dubno or STITI or whatever, but what's the point? If I want dubno I listen to dubno. They have to move forward... and the RiverRun project was just that. The album... not so much. Something seemed to hold them back (except for the last third + Loads of Birds, which could easily have been another RiverRun).

In answer to the original question, I think they should release a longer RiverRun in form of an album.


Oh, don't get me wrong- the RiverRuns have been the soundtracks to a lot of great moments in my life recently (particularly the time I was taking a drive home one night and listened to all three in a row while the snow-covered scenery around me glistened... lovely), but they just seemed to focus on short, sometimes unfulfilled ponderings to set them off as individual releases. While I find some parts of Vanilla Monkey, most of which come in near the end, interesting, it feels a bit sparse at points with nothing but bongoes and Karl's foreboding vocals about suffocating and getting burned to keep you focused on what you're hearing. It's wonderfully experimental- Vanilla Monkey is certainly indicative of Underworld- but the point is that it just doesn't pass as an intimate moment with the band, like you'd expect a special release like the RiverRun project to be full of. Meanwhile, the chances of creating a special live memory to make you fond of the original, as happened to me with Rowla, are lower, as only the tracks that already stand out seem to represent the RiverRuns in performances. A new album would have more material and really just make a more coherent release from the group.

[ultradave]

i remember making it on the second wave but barely. waited 15 minutes for it to show up on a flaky internet connection and 2 minutes after i finally got mine they were all gone

i had to wake up at 3:45am and remain in silence so as not to wake the wife. so with tired crusty eyes i refreshed my eBay link and got mine. No regrets.

[TheBang]

I set up a server script that polled Mal's eBay page every minute and sent an SMS to my cell phone as soon as an Underworld item was listed. It worked beautifully. :)

[Dunwho]

I personally believe in the RR ethos down to the ground. The idea of a flow and process of thinking is pretty much Underworld in a nutshell...however the way in which the material is released to the public is very important. It is clear that while the RR's were very official and substantial releases a lot of the less involved fans knew absolutely nothing about them until OWB was released and they revisited the new UWlive.com site. To a lot of people the RR's sadly became simply an mp3 extra of "stuff" that a lot of people never truely connected with in the way that they should.

However when you listen to the first two tracks of STITI and listen to the progression through the songs you get IMO the same progression that you find in the RR..

So what i am realy hoping for is an album that features 4 or 5 ..twenty minute tracks which are not named under one name but are along the lines of "Juanita/Kiteless/To Dream of Love"
so that the listener can identify with both the individual tracks and the flow and vibe of a true riverrun experience.... id like it to be released generally too and not just on limited edition vinyl and download...

...let the public hear the truly incredible capacity of underworld and not just a compromise like that of OWB (though i really do think it is one of their most challenging and exciting albums)

phew i hope i didnt bore you with that tome of nonsence

[Sappys Curry]

I really like both the RR releases and OWB. I prefer albums, though, and would like to see a new album over a new RR series. I'd like a new RR release or releases, but I'd prefer a new album coming out instead of RR releases and then an album in like 3 years from now.

The RR releases are really cool, though. The third release "I'm a Big Sister" is my favorite one of the RR releases.

[TheBang]

I had what I think is a cool idea the other day. They should release a new album this year. But they should also include (and publicize it with a sticker on the front) two download codes for future RiverRun EP's. And publicize the hell out of it on the blogs and social networking sites and whatnot too ("Underworld gives away digital EP's with album purchase!").

So, for example, you'd buy the physical album in, say October 2009. Inside the CD, there's an insert flyer with a big splash that says "You get 2 free digital EP's with this album! The first will be released in January 2010 and the second will be released in June 2010 on underworldlive.com." And then the two unique codes are printed below. Then, in those months they release the EP's on underworldlive.com, and people enter their codes to download them or, if they don't have codes, they can simply buy the EP's at the normal £5 or whatever.

This accomplishes a few things. First of all, it drives physical album sales for people who perceive a greater value for their money. Secondly, it drives more interest and traffic (hopefully traffic which will become regular traffic) to underworldlive.com. Third, it generates interest, because I don't think anyone else has done it quite like this before, and it would make for some good news stories. Finally, it's a way for them to monetize some of the 200-odd unreleased tracks they have lying around.

It might even help sell some of the older material too. Like Dunwho said, a lot of people probably don't know the RiverRuns exist. Well, EVERYONE who buys the album will know about the free RiverRun EP's. They'll get two new ones for free, and after they see what a cool package they are, they might come back and explore some of the older RiverRun releases. And hopefully continue visiting the site for future EP's and digital bundles.

The only downside I can think of is that it would be a little more expensive to do the unique code printing for the flyers, and then you have to set up the website to process and accept the codes for downloading, but neither of those should be a particularly large barrier. Oh, and there should be an expiration date for the codes too, so the redemption system doesn't have to maintained indefinitely. "Codes must be redeemed by Dec. 31, 2011."

Edit: Ooh, this gets better too. To redeem their codes, people have to become registered members of underworldlive.com. So now they get to see all the free goodies (videos, concerts, Books of Jam, etc.) they get in the Members section. They could even have a special webpage for the free EP's, underworldlive.com/freedownload (or something), and before the first release, it could say "The free digital EP's haven't been released yet, but register your e-mail below and we'll e-mail you as soon as it's released. In the meantime, check out the other free goodies you get on underworldlive.com by registering with us." And now they have an e-mail database of pretty much everyone who bought the new album, and they can send out (discrete) marketing spams ("Underworld releases new digital single bundle for Always Loved a Film!").

[DaddyAdv]

very nice elaboration !
I think this is pretty much what Karl already said about OWB:

something like "this is an invitation card, this is all we do, come and find out more via our webpage"

[galama]

I would love a riverrun (an early one would be delightful) as much as I would love a new album this year. What could one expect from a riverrun but sweet UW abstractions, soundscapes and repetitions of vocals and hits on metal...and I am really hoping that all the snow in the UK has played a significant role on the creative process. I'm also hoping that a new album will take a different direction from the old dirty UW and the new concepts of OWB and half of BF. Whatever comes out will be good in its own nature, no matter how different it is.

I have some expectations about the artwork too. I'd like to see karl or john warwicker bring in some intricate minimalistic designs and with certainty rick can contribute with his macro photography.

[TheBang]

I think this is pretty much what Karl already said about OWB:

something like "this is an invitation card, this is all we do, come and find out more via our webpage"
Well, it's all good and well to put your URL in the liner notes, but I don't think it does that much to actually drive traffic to the site. What I outlined above is a more concerted effort to get people to visit the site, and hopefully to make it more "sticky" for them (hence the 2 free downloads instead of just 1).

[Dunwho]

Ha seems you have got a 5 year plan already thought out there! ha you should get it all down on paper pitch it to em.. maybe have some chocolate biscuits at the presentation and your a shoe in!

Its a good idea though i dont know if i like the whole "never done before" aspect of it. I think UW is more about the music and art and less about the new big ideas... i guess what im trying to say is that a thing like that would be seen more by the media as yet another plan by a band to go around the problem of illegal downloads which it clearly would not be in reality! I wouldnt want the whole idea to just turn into another Radiohead or Prince thing.

[TheBang]

But Underworld have always been pioneers of the "never done before". They were letting you download Kittens online before Napster was even a word. They released a cutting-edge, forward-thinking live concert DVD (there's a great article about that here (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec00/articles/underworld.asp)).

And it's definitely a plan to get around the problem of illegal downloads. The old way of the music industry is broken. Album, single, tour, album, single, tour ain't gonna cut it anymore. In the online digital age you have to get creative with the way you market, release, and monetize your music. Underworld have already taken steps towards that with they way they've released their music online for purchase and through their website and radio shows.

My musings above were borne out of the thought of how to do an album release in the current music industry climate. The "free album" thing has been done to death already, from Radiohead to Nine Inch Nails. They released albums for little to no charge and then later monetized it with a physical release or even super-deluxe-packaging releases. So, in thinking about how to do it differently, I figured why not combine the paid release with the free stuff. You have the standard album release, but now you have even more! New, free stuff. Stuff packaged differently and distributed in a way that wouldn't make sense in a physical package, yet complements or extends the original physical release. The online RiverRun EP's, of course, fit this bill perfectly, so it just made sense to combine it in some way with a physical album.

[Dunwho]

But Underworld have always been pioneers of the "never done before". They were letting you download Kittens online before Napster was even a word. They released a cutting-edge, forward-thinking live concert DVD (there's a great article about that here (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec00/articles/underworld.asp)).

And it's definitely a plan to get around the problem of illegal downloads. The old way of the music industry is broken. Album, single, tour, album, single, tour ain't gonna cut it anymore. In the online digital age you have to get creative with the way you market, release, and monetize your music. Underworld have already taken steps towards that with they way they've released their music online for purchase and through their website and radio shows.

My musings above were borne out of the thought of how to do an album release in the current music industry climate. The "free album" thing has been done to death already, from Radiohead to Nine Inch Nails. They released albums for little to no charge and then later monetized it with a physical release or even super-deluxe-packaging releases. So, in thinking about how to do it differently, I figured why not combine the paid release with the free stuff. You have the standard album release, but now you have even more! New, free stuff. Stuff packaged differently and distributed in a way that wouldn't make sense in a physical package, yet complements or extends the original physical release. The online RiverRun EP's, of course, fit this bill perfectly, so it just made sense to combine it in some way with a physical album.

Dang i knew it would come across that way as i was writing the very words "never done before".... Of course UW are pioneers of nearly everything they do. And their artistic statements all the way from the 80's and Dubnobas in the 90's to the Art Jams of the last two years...they are essentially avant-gard. And i completely agree with that...

..i would like to retract any sentiment in my last post that should suggest otherwise!! . .... (just to get that straight! haha :) )

So i guess i should explain myself a little more clearly!

What i was trying to get at is the quality that UW and Tomato have as a collective who are more concerned with their Art and who it effects rather than the fame glory and outrageous publicity. (Because that was clearly achieved and left aside in the Freur and UW#1 days). They have always chosen the path that led them more towards their personal goals regardless of the financial benefits... of course everyone needs to make a living but it seems the music they make happens to also be extremely popular and freakin incredible - thus they make money regardless.

If they were to do something like you suggested, and i think its a real nice idea!!!, i just hope and pray that it would not result in distracting media promotion of and idea rather than the more important promotion of the music and the art work behind the marketing strategy.

Do you want the album to be remembered for its music or for the way it was sold?

I think the music is more important don't you?

So if this strategy was to be used i think they would need to work long and hard in making sure it doesnt overshadow the art itself.



phew! just need to clear my case there haha

[TheBang]

Ah. Well, what you said certainly makes a lot of sense, and I hadn't really considered that. Certainly if they're happy with the way things have been going, then my suggestions are clearly more sales and marketing oriented. I think there is something to be said too though for trying to reach out to people and expose them to the stuff that they're doing. As it currently stands, I think only the more hardcore fans, those who seek out Underworld, are familiar with the goodies they give us, like the Books of Jam, the RiverRuns, the free audio and video available on the site. It could be useful to expose the more casual fan to the stuff they're doing online by tying it into the traditional album release.

[Champiness]

It's an excellent idea in my opinion: the best of both worlds in every sense. Hopefully UW won't find it beneath their diginity to take advice from a fan!

[TheBang]

Of course, there's always this way (http://www.eastbayexpress.com/blogs/take_shrooms_and_cruise_hollywood_in_a_lamborghini/Content?oid=927361) to release your new album. :eek:

[Rog]

:eek:

[Dunwho]

If there was a copy of the new album for £10,000 with the added bonus that you spent a week with the lads working on a tune in the loud Lemon...or for £500 that you got to co-remix a track with the guys and released on itunes.....

...would you pay up if you had the cash?

if i had the cash spare? YES!
if i had to scrape it.......ehm... maybe.. no what am i thinking!? YES!

[TheBang]

Would you pay £1,000 for a back/foot massage from Karl? Hm...

[purlieu]

I'd definitely prefer an album, but I'm still of the preferring to own a copy of the record type. Whatever happens, new material is always good though.

I like the free EPs idea - as has been said, as a promotional tool to fans who don't frequent underworldlive rather than as a massive marketing tool.