Crunch

[Deckard]

Where is this all heading? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2008/09/meltdown_monday.html)

I still feel things need to get a lot worse before they can start getting better, and the combination of the banking/housing/oil/credit crises rolled into one is a daunting prospect.

Anyone feeling the pinch in their own lives? I've definitely noticed my clients having less to spend, plus the rising cost of food and energy eating into my monthly outgoings.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I think we are all pulling our belts a little tighter, but of course the knock-on effect of that is less consumer spending, less profit for businesses, more redundancies and so on. Bring back Keynes, I say!:D (Except our governments have no money to inject into the economy because they are still fighting senseless, expensive wars instead.)

It's gonna be a rough ride for a year or two.

Meanwhile, I am planning to dig up a patch of my garden and grow my own veg next year. Yes, really. Me. :eek:

[Deckard]

Meanwhile, I am planning to dig up a patch of my garden and grow my own veg next year. Yes, really. Me. :eek:
You mean, you... a city-type!!? :D

Funnily enough I was going to do that a few years ago too.

Then we got this chap...

http://i35.tinypic.com/idduua.jpg

...which quickly put paid to that idea. :rolleyes:

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I think we are all pulling our belts a little tighter, but of course the knock-on effect of that is less consumer spending, less profit for businesses, more redundancies and so on. Bring back Keynes, I say!:D (Except our governments have no money to inject into the economy because they are still fighting senseless, expensive wars instead.)

It's gonna be a rough ride for a year or two.

Meanwhile, I am planning to dig up a patch of my garden and grow my own veg next year. Yes, really. Me. :eek:


May I suggest a few bunches of cilantro? The medical benifits are compelling.

[Future Proof]

Cilantro = the difference between good salsa and great salsa. Especially when you make your own.

I tracked down the recipe for Chipotle's Roasted Corn Salsa a couple of weeks ago and the first batch was good but once I added about 50% more diced cilantro when making the second batch, the result was godlike. Yes, godlike.

Sucks about those banks btw.

[gambit]

I was laid off from my job in February, and (after a temp job) I'm still looking for another job that doesn't involve flipping burgers or wiping up someone's poop. So yeah, I'm feeling the pinch.

[BeautifulBurnout]

May I suggest a few bunches of cilantro? The medical benifits are compelling.

I had to look this up and realised it's corriander leaf in UK English. Yes! Will do! :D

[Rog]

well, as a vegetable grower for a number of years i feel very sorry for the poor bankers...........though i don't think the two are connected?:confused:

actually, the capitalist pigs are getting what they deserve i just don't want a penny of my tax going to help any of them out...i hope the whole global capitalist system falls apart;)

[BeautifulBurnout]

well, as a vegetable grower for a number of years i feel very sorry for the poor bankers...........though i don't think the two are connected?:confused:

actually, the capitalist pigs are getting what they deserve i just don't want a penny of my tax going to help any of them out...i hope the whole global capitalist system falls apart;)

Come the Revolution, up against the wall, bang bang bang! (c) Tooting Popular Front :D

Sorry I got side-tracked on the vegetable gardening thingy.

Well, Marx always said that capitalism would eat itself, and that seems to be what has happened to these greedy gits. Pressure-sell mortgages and re-mortgages to people who can't afford to repay them, then sell bonds on those mortgages, then speculate on the bonds and so on ad nauseam. South Sea Bubble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Bubble) anyone?

Edit: Lovely quote here:

"When Sir Isaac Newton was asked about the continuance of the rising of South Sea stock? ---- He answered 'that he could not calculate the madness of people'. (Spence, Anecdotes, 1820, p368)

[BeautifulBurnout]

More views from the Left on the current crisis and the future of capitalism:

Crunch Time (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/17/recession.labour)

[gambit]

Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End In Sight (http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105785/Worst-Crisis-Since-1930s-With-No-End-Yet-in-Sight)
Asian markets tumble (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_bi_ge/world_markets)

Um, we're all fucked. :(

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Worst Crisis Since '30s, With No End In Sight (http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105785/Worst-Crisis-Since-1930s-With-No-End-Yet-in-Sight)
Asian markets tumble (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_bi_ge/world_markets)

Um, we're all fucked. :(


Oh, gambit, don't a drama queen.(I'm just joking) But still don't be such a fucking drama queen.

[Deckard]

More views from the Left on the current crisis and the future of capitalism:

Crunch Time (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/17/recession.labour)
Just about every leftie in Britain is in that lot!

Tony Benn's remark struck a chord...
I remember the 1930s. What the Depression did then was to stimulatte antisemitism. I met Oswald Mosley in 1928 when he was a Labour MP. The next time I met him he was wearing a blackshirt. Where there is fear, there is scapegoating, and that is very dangerous.

And while I don't share the view that we're seeing the death of capitalism or anything like that, I am still wondering: is all this still just the beginning?

Incidentally, today's Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS is not something I'm entirely happy about - the size of an institution like that can't be healthy, can it?

[Deckard]

I'm surprised Sarah Palin hasn't yet sought to blame the tumultuous last 7 days in the markets on that thing the scientists at CERN switched on last Wednesday. :p

(3 topical issues for the price of one joke! Damn, I'm wasted here...)

[Rog]

Just
And while I don't share the view that we're seeing the death of capitalism or anything like that, I am still wondering: is all this still just the beginning?


Nor do i, i'm just dreaming!;)

[Rog]

Damn, I'm wasted here...)

so am i usually;)

[Rog]

Sorry I got side-tracked on the vegetable gardening thingy.

Never be sorry about talking vegetable gardening! its the right and proper thing to do if you want fresh organic food which is not what you get in the veg section at the supermarkets.......:D:D

[Deckard]

so am i usually;)
Haha!

[chuck]

Right.

Been reading a little bit about this whole mess. Thought I'd throw these links out for those others interested.

Subprime works (http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true)

Simple - yet vaguely powerful.

Subprime Crisis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g&feature=related) - the Bird and Fortune view

Class act.

Freakonomics FAQ (http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/diamond-and-kashyap-on-the-recent-financial-upheavals/)

Bringing Down Bear Stearns (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/bear_stearns200808)

Not the current crisis - but all linked me thinks.

McMansions? The new slums (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200803/subprime)

Moving on up? Don't think so.

[Troy McClure]

The first link pretty applies to any 'paper' not just subprime. Yet that's pretty much how it worked for awhile.

The below link is the text of the draft proposal submitted for the bailout plan:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html?_r=2&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Section 8 of the text titled 'Review' scares the crap out of me.
Sec. 8. Review.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

I hope people in Congress grow a pair and don't force this through without some review.

Jason

[BeautifulBurnout]

I have to say I am amazed at Poulson's plan to buy up the bad debt in the market rather than nationalise, like we did with Northern Rock here. At least with a nationalisation, the government would gain some benefit from the continued operation of these banks. As it stands, the government and the American tax payer will be taking a huge hit for seemingly no benefit at all, aside from "keeping the market viable".

However, I am incensed at Poulson's suggestion that if the US go down this route of sponging up all the gambling debts of the rich Wall Street players to keep the market afloat, that other countries should follow suit. For what? So the same greedy-bastard players can continue to make private fortunes out of non-existant equity while taxpayers suffer further cuts in funding for health, education, welfare, etc. etc., not to mention the risk that their personal taxes will be hiked up to fill this greed-and-stupidity black hole?

:mad:

And excuse me but - wtf?! (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/fury-at-25bn-bonus-for-lehmans-new-york-staff-937560.html) :eek:
$2,500,000,000 divided by 10,000 is $250k, if my maths is right. What possible reason could there be for paying these schmucks an average quarter of a million bonus each? For doing such a good job in fleecing the people, the shareholders and the government and still having a company left to sell to Barclays? Give me strength! :mad:

[Strangelet]

However, I am incensed at Poulson's suggestion that if the US go down this route of sponging up all the gambling debts of the rich Wall Street players to keep the market afloat, that other countries should follow suit. For what? So the same greedy-bastard players can continue to make private fortunes out of non-existant equity while taxpayers suffer further cuts in funding for health, education, welfare, etc. etc., not to mention the risk that their personal taxes will be hiked up to fill this greed-and-stupidity black hole?


Hear, f'ing, hear.

And once again I'd like to trot out my man Ron Paul who, because he called this years ago, is now back on the news and being asked for comment, this time with a lot less smirk and more wide eyes.

I understand the free market/strict constitutionalist bent may tarnish his logic for some of you, but I think everyone on the left can see this bail out in similar terms. a fabricated debt ridden solution to a fabricated debt ridden problem. extra points for those that see the fascist elements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8)

[Strangelet]

....and look what happened.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aPhXLrPjePjQ&refer=canada

clockwork....:rolleyes:

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I understand the free market/strict constitutionalist bent may tarnish his logic for some of you, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8)

Just a little bit.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/22/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes

"...go on and BLOW it..." I think satan's got something for you. Shell.

[Dirty0900]

I just hope penny chews don't go up.

[Deckard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qLefrvxbq8
I'm really no economist, so I have to grasp at what little I can and make limited judgments on that. But these two points of Paul's just make me worried... (worried that he's right, not worried that he's wrong)

"You can't solve the problem of inflation - that is, money and credit out of thin air - with more money and credit out of thin air"

"The bubble has been blown up, it needs to deflate - but they won't allow it"

I've been reading similar comments to this elsewhere. Can the government/Fed/whoever* (*see, that's how ignorant I am about this) really have got it that wrong, or been that short-sighted? :confused:

[Deckard]

I just hope penny chews don't go up.
Now that's the kind of economics I understand. ;)

[Strangelet]

I'm really no economist, so I have to grasp at what little I can and make limited judgments on that. But these two points of Paul's just make me worried... (worried that he's right, not worried that he's wrong)

"You can't solve the problem of inflation - that is, money and credit out of thin air - with more money and credit out of thin air"

"The bubble has been blown up, it needs to deflate - but they won't allow it"

I've been reading similar comments to this elsewhere. Can the government/Fed/whoever* (*see, that's how ignorant I am about this) really have got it that wrong, or been that short-sighted? :confused:

Its both the Fed (federal reserve) and government. The federal reserve is a private entity that controls the money supply. They've been responsible for artificially extending the bubble by keeping down interest rates on loans between banks. If its down, then banks can loan more money to people for things like businesses and houses and stuff.

They've been printing money far past the net worth of the country's assets. Which is the *real* cause of the food and oil spikes. Its not that these things are more scarce, its that inflation has caused these things to be more expensive because the dollar is weakened. Which causes a feedback loop because investors that would normally be in the money are moving to commodities like gold and oil to hedge off inflation, which causes even more inflation! You see that exact thing happening in the bloomberg article I posted. The fed prints money like its the new york times sunday paper, the dollar falls, and everything goes up in cost.

This has been happening since just after WW1 in this country and we've seen the value of the dollar drop like this ever since.

The thing is we've always managed to create enough objective wealth through technology and innovation to shoulder up the economy later. So the american economy has been like an irresponsible uncle going through the earnings of the family business, so far so good, or at least that's the shit crazy optimism we console ourselves with. In other words we can afford to act irresponsibly because of the margins provided by innovation.
But there's a limit and so why not just act responsibly? this is the perspective that you just don't see these days.

Its like the housing market. Before, to get into a house you had to have 10% - 20% down for a fixed interest, conventional loan. And the value of the house would be well within the 2.5 times your annual salary ceiling. Which was easy because housing was a shit load cheaper than it is now. The majority of mortgage loans were conventional. Now the vast majority are exotic ARM, interest only jobs, and I don't think many people in the past 4 years bought houses valued less than 2.5 times their annual income. That's because nobody can afford a conventional loan anymore.

And this is my point. Its not like the 2.5 annual or 10% minimum down are arbitrary or political or subject to whim. They fall out of the reality of mortgates. If you have any chance of paying the fucker back, the math dictates the probabiliity of risk optimized around these margins.

So who the hell thought it was a good fucking idea to throw money at anyone with a 600 credit score to buy a mcmansion where a farm used to be? The same fuckers we're bailing out, watering down my savings that I've put aside for my conventional home loan so that responsible people like me get fucked both ends.

[cacophony]

"You can't solve the problem of inflation - that is, money and credit out of thin air - with more money and credit out of thin air"

pshaw. tell that to zimbabwe.

[Rog]

............:eek:.........i've got to be careful i don't drop dead of an apoplexy caused by these........scumbags.........(not you lot, the capitalist pigs i mean). I'd like to shove their bonuses where the sun don't shine;)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

............:eek:.........i've got to be careful i don't drop dead of an apoplexy caused by these........scumbags.........(not you lot, the capitalist pigs i mean). I'd like to shove their bonuses where the sun don't shine;)


Right?

Since when has it been all right to fuck over your nation?

Let's give ya a bonus for your outstanding role model of progression.

I don't give a shit about being on restriction!

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Time Vol. 172, No. 13 | 2008: Verbatim p. 17. First quote.

NO WAY!! I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!

Keep blowing boys, practice makes perfect! And you don't want to piSS the big red guy off.

[Strangelet]

Just a little bit.


well i'm also not one for whom the phrase "getting the government off our backs" sums of what's wrong with the world.

That said, there's far too much marginalization between the left and libertarian camps. The left should begin to see a comrad in arms against government/corporate collusion which is the very definition of fascism, and get over the scary words like "free market'

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

well i'm also not one for whom the phrase "getting the government off our backs" sums of what's wrong with the world.

That said, there's far too much marginalization between the left and libertarian camps. The left should begin to see a comrad in arms against government/corporate collusion which is the very definition of fascism, and get over the scary words like "free market'


I was just kidding(in the voice of the Poltergiest little lady way).

He seems like he'd be fun to get drunk with. In a COMPLETELY plutonic(sp?) relationship of course. I bet he talks some funny shit.

[chuck]

So - no research of mine - but a judicious link from another friend brings out this small gem of policy from the GOP.

Rebuilding Home Ownership (http://www.gop.com/2008Platform/Economy.htm#6)

"At the same time, government action must not implicitly encourage anyone to borrow more than they can afford to repay. We support energetic federal investigation and, where appropriate, prosecution of criminal wrongdoing in the mortgage industry and investment sector. We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all."

So - about that 700 billion.

Your party says one thing - your President asks for another - and Palin just babbles about Putin.

[BeautifulBurnout]

LOL at the new, improved scam email :



Dear Madame/Sir:
Compliments of the day. I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.
I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion USD. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.
I am working with Mr. Phil Gramm, lobbyist for UBS, who (God willing) will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a former U.S. congressional leader and the architect of the PALIN / McCain Financial Doctrine, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. As such, you can be assured that this transaction is 100% safe.
This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred.
Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds.
Yours Faithfully in the Name of God,
Minister of Treasury Paulson

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I can totally see him wearing some kind of leather get up, no?

Oh and with this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26906967/.

Third word needs to be edited to read "higheverythingd". Use your imagination. LOOK it's a new word.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Kucinich says no (http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/is_this_the_united_states_congress) to the Bail-Out Bill.

Interesting reading indeed... :eek:

[Deckard]

Interesting times. Even before the bailout - sorry, rescue plan - was rejected.

The BBC's Robert Peston (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/) makes me want to get out the razor blades sometimes.

[BrotherLovesDub]

i love when rich people suffer.

[rayray]

that made me smile - BLD - thanks !

greed and entitlement has reached new
highs in this world. :mad:

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Soup anyone?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26949764/

We're all gonna look like skinny Hollywood now.

[King of Snake]

here is an interesting video clip from 2 years ago with one analyst accurately predicting the current situation, you should really watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfascZSTU4o

(oh boy I wish i could see that Laffer guy's face right now if you showed him this clip)
i then watched a bunch of other clips on youtube with Peter Schiff from earlier this year and in almost every one he seems to be the only one in the panel talking that actually sees the crisis coming as we see it happening right now.
Now I don't know much about economy but this guy does seem to be one of the few who actually knows what he's talking about. There's a bunch of good articles on his company's website as well:

http://www.europac.net/

I must say I'm fascinated by what's happening to the US economy right now and if Schiff is right in his predictions the US are in for some downright scary scenarios, especially if the bailout plan goes trough in some form or another, since it does not address any of the underlying problems of the economy.

[Sean]

i love when rich people suffer.Unfortunately, this isn't about rich people suffering - it's about all of us. The market lost 1.3 trillion dollars yesterday. That's not just the money of rich people, that's all of our retirement accounts, investments, etc. disappearing at a rate of, if I remember what I heard correctly, 2 billion dollars a minute yesterday afternoon.

That aside, I can't say I love it when "rich people suffer", myself. I guess I never associated "rich" with "bad". I've known many rich people who are very good indeed, and don't deserve to suffer any more than the rest of us non-rich folks do.

Personally, I don't like the idea of bailing out these companies that have created the problem we're in to begin with. But as far as I can tell, not bailing them out would actually hurt all of us even more than what happened yesterday. We need to do it smart and fast.

[Sarcasmo]

Unfortunately, this isn't about rich people suffering - it's about all of us. The market lost 1.3 trillion dollars yesterday. That's not just the money of rich people, that's all of our retirement accounts, investments, etc. disappearing at a rate of, if I remember what I heard correctly, 2 billion dollars a minute yesterday afternoon.

That aside, I can't say I love it when "rich people suffer", myself. I guess I never associated "rich" with "bad". I've known many rich people who are very good indeed, and don't deserve to suffer any more than the rest of us non-rich folks do.

Personally, I don't like the idea of bailing out these companies that have created the problem we're in to begin with. But as far as I can tell, not bailing them out would actually hurt all of us even more than what happened yesterday. We need to do it smart and fast.

Ugh...NO. NO MONEY. BAD SEAN. VERY BAD!

These companies need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Yeah, it might suck for a little while, but if you don't want to see 3/4 of a trillion of our hard earned money pissed away by executives looking to line their pockets, then you'll piss and moan to stop this bill from getting passed.

Look, unemployment is at 7% right now. That means over 90% of Americans have jobs. That's right about average. It's not wonderful and sunny, but shit, it's not like it was in the real depression, where unemployment was at 40-50%. The median household income is just below record levels. Oil dropped $10 a barrel in one day. In the states, we could be buying gas for $2.25/gal again by this time next year. Now is the time to get into real estate and investments if you have the means. All this talk about how we're all going to lose our life savings because of this is just hysterics. Investors are jumpy and bad at adapting to short term unpleasantness.

I like Lou's idea:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/09/30/dobbs.qa/index.html

[Strangelet]

here is an interesting video clip from 2 years ago with one analyst accurately predicting the current situation, you should really watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfascZSTU4o




Ron Paul's economic adviser. So essentially Ron Paul.

[Strangelet]

Personally, I don't like the idea of bailing out these companies that have created the problem we're in to begin with. But as far as I can tell, not bailing them out would actually hurt all of us even more than what happened yesterday. We need to do it smart and fast.

I really don't know. I mean its straight fascism. Everyone on the talking head network is calling it socialism in this smug antipathy towards the free market and capitalism, but it would only be socialism if we did what Beautiful Burnout described happening in the UK. Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac are just owned by the government. This is fascism.

I'm willing to even look past that detail if its pragmatically going to help out. But when you have the people who called this from the beginning, when everyone else was laughing in their faces, saying that the bail out is bad, I have to say its worth some investigation.

As Ron Paul asked. do you want a bad couple of years or do you want a bad decade?

[Sean]

Ugh...NO. NO MONEY. BAD SEAN. VERY BAD!Frankly, I know very little about this kind of stuff, so I'm going mostly from the gut and from what I've been able to understand on the news on this one. So understand that this is just one semi-ignorant man's opinion.

These companies need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Yeah, it might suck for a little while, but if you don't want to see 3/4 of a trillion of our hard earned money pissed away by executives looking to line their pockets, then you'll piss and moan to stop this bill from getting passed.Which is why I say I think it has to be done smart - meaning in a way that doesn't allow them to line their pockets with the bailout money.

Look, unemployment is at 7% right now. That means over 90% of Americans have jobs. That's right about average. It's not wonderful and sunny, but shit, it's not like it was in the real depression, where unemployment was at 40-50%. The median household income is just below record levels. Oil dropped $10 a barrel in one day. In the states, we could be buying gas for $2.25/gal again by this time next year. Now is the time to get into real estate and investments if you have the means. All this talk about how we're all going to lose our life savings because of this is just hysterics. Investors are jumpy and bad at adapting to short term unpleasantness.This actually runs counter to some of what I've been hearing and seeing. For one, every time CNN had their money people come on to answer questions yesterday, the answer to the question "should I start investing in the stock market right now?" was a resounding "are you crazy? NO!" And while it would be good to get into real estate, it's kind of hard to when you can't get a loan, which is what some friends of mine who I know have good credit and incomes in the low six-figure range are finding right now. And that difficulty seems to me like it'll continue until the banks are in a position to safely lend, which won't happen without some kind of action being taken.

I guess I should say here that I have no idea if the $700 billion plan was the "right" plan or not, but SOMEthing has to be passed now to keep us from moving towards a situation that does more closely resemble the great depression. And that of course would mean some serious reforms in addition to any bailout plan.

[bas_I_am]

sarcasmo, you need to study economics.

First, the depression was 20-25% unemployment at its peak ( US figures ), the average over the period was about 12%-15%. We are over half way there, and employment figures are coming friday which could be about 8%.

Second, oil prices going down is not necessarily a good thing. Supply has not increased by 1/3 therefore the drop in price can only be attributed to a rapid decrease in demand. Do you think this is because all of a sudden the world turned 'green'? No, it is because the world is facing a HUGE industrial slowdown and no longer needs oil in the amounts of just a year ago.

Third this is not about bailing out the greedy mortgage brokers and bond insurers. On the contrary, this is about maintaining the worlds economy. There is no money to lend, and like it or not, it takes credit to make things work. I work for a company that has a TON of cash. Unfortunately, or clients (construction and engineering) are dependent on lines of credit to by raw production materials. They can't operate, my company goes into a slow down. Our wages (profit sharing, 401k match, etc. . . ) deteriorate. Wages go down, we spend less. not just on frivolity, but on things that we need. This spirals and feeds on itself.

Money in and of itself is not bad. It is just capacitance of economic potential. In other words, it is only the ability to carry and exchange work between parties. In exchange for some work that you have done, I do some work for you. Instead of exchanging actual labor, you exchange with me money that you earned by performing labor elsewhere, or that you earned by investing into some value adding enterprise.

Money isn't bad.
Greed is bad

[Strangelet]

sarcasmo, you need to study economics.

one thing I like about dirty is how no one starts their posts with functionless condescending remarks. makes a distinct difference between itself and the software development forums I read out of necessity. where people are obviously skipping showers in order to make the time to make devastating attacks on people's intelligence so they can proudly say "so I said [insult]" to their plastic real doll that night.

[Sean]

one thing I like about dirty is how no one starts their posts with functionless condescending remarks. ALMOST no one...

Anyway, maybe I was completely wrong (http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes). Although they are saying that the rise was due to confidence that a bailout deal would be reached by weeks end.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Has anyone else been able to read this? financialservices.house.gov.

[bas_I_am]

one thing I like about dirty is how no one starts their posts with functionless condescending remarks.

I am assuming that you are being sarcastic. In my defense, I started with a conjecture. Made three supporting arguments (full of typos, I admit:o.) And finished with a conclusion.

Anyway, maybe I was completely wrong (http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?cnn=yes). Although they are saying that the rise was due to confidence that a bailout deal would be reached by weeks end.
I'm thinking that it is just a rebound based on 'bargain' hunting by unsophisticated investors spurred by shorts picking up their marks.

Note, it hit the 10800 resistance; if it goes through to 11000 it should hold on confidence. My bet, it is back down to 10300 by friday. If we break through 10200 it will fall to 9900.

[Rog]

Third this is not about bailing out the greedy mortgage brokers and bond insurers.


yes it fuckin is! the time has come for a great change in world economics.... if this, and other, 'bail-outs' occur in the form that has been put forward then the people with the money will not suffer, they will learn nothing except they can rip us all off at will and we will get more of the same.

[bas_I_am]

yes it fuckin is! the time has come for a great change in world economics.... if this, and other, 'bail-outs' occur in the form that has been put forward then the people with the money will not suffer, they will learn nothing except they can rip us all off at will and we will get more of the same.
It was regulatory failure.

Eight years of lassez-faire (sp?) policy by a collusive presidency allowed this to happen.

The "people with money" will hurt a little but they will weather the storm. The people without will be the ones that suffer.

[Deckard]

Sounds like the ultimate gun to our heads.

I don't care if the rich are doing well. I only care if the rest of us are doing bad.

I just lost one of my longest standing clients this morning - a family business of 25+ years went bust. And only a fortnight ago, another one ceased trading.

Just hoping things don't snowball.

[Strangelet]

yes it fuckin is! the time has come for a great change in world economics.... if this, and other, 'bail-outs' occur in the form that has been put forward then the people with the money will not suffer, they will learn nothing except they can rip us all off at will and we will get more of the same.

i'm with you, rog. Granted I have to appeal to authority for my opinion. But I'm also appealing to arguments that make the most common sense (to me). Either way this bailout is wrong.

Check this chick out. Whether you agree with the bailout or not. She's going to succeed in getting you pissed the fuck off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S27yitK32ds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbD62gNi9WE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbD62gNi9WE&feature=related)

[bas_I_am]

I am not for a bailout that puts the onus on the taxpayers. I am anything but that. My argument is something has to be done. Any action taken must protect the common man and not reward credit insurers, mortgage bankers etc.

But this is not about bailing them out, its about preventing their maleficence from destroying everyone (which it will). At the same time, addressing the US executive branch regulatory malfeasance.

Any argument that says "money is bad! Let 'em all burn" is infantile. Now is the opportunity to fix things. Its the carrot-stick approach - "Ok, here's the money, but in order to get it, we are going to have some significant rule changes!" Then we investigate and prosecute the perpetrators.

If we do nothing, the greedy rich will remain rich, though they may feel a slight pinch. When things begin to rebound, which inevitably it will, it will be only the guys who screwed it up that will have the resources to benefit from it. Meanwhile, everything will be drained from the poor.

If you listen to Rep. Kaptur, she doesn't say do nothing, she is saying what we do has to be done in a manner that protects the people. At the same time she says we have to do something.

The only other alternative is to create a world war.

[Sean]

Wow. I agree with this last post from bas_I_am. I think that's a first for me...;)

[bas_I_am]

Wow. I agree with this last post from bas_I_am. I think that's a first for me...;)
Sean. . . believe it or not all, idealogically there is ALOT we agree on. I think at times we may look at certain events from a different angle.

For example, on Ahmedajan (or how ever you spell it) - I think alot of what we hear that he says is coming through filters. Filters with agendas. When fox news/bush/anti-defamation league says that he advocates "wiping Israel from the map" I question the filter. Everytime I have investigated, I find that what he said is he advocates the disillusion of Israel as a political state and returning power to the people of palestine. Yes, I guess you could extrapolate it means "wiping Israel from the map" as there would not be a political boundary on the globe denoted as Israel, but I would contend that his tone is completely different from the inflamatory rhetoric injected via partisan filters.

There are two sides to every story. . and then there is the truth

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

See, we do need women* priests. At least in the financial church of In God We Trust.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26963309/







*I got into trouble again.

[Strangelet]

I am not for a bailout that puts the onus on the taxpayers. I am anything but that. My argument is something has to be done. Any action taken must protect the common man and not reward credit insurers, mortgage bankers etc.

But this is not about bailing them out, its about preventing their maleficence from destroying everyone (which it will). At the same time, addressing the US executive branch regulatory malfeasance.

Any argument that says "money is bad! Let 'em all burn" is infantile. Now is the opportunity to fix things. Its the carrot-stick approach - "Ok, here's the money, but in order to get it, we are going to have some significant rule changes!" Then we investigate and prosecute the perpetrators.

If we do nothing, the greedy rich will remain rich, though they may feel a slight pinch. When things begin to rebound, which inevitably it will, it will be only the guys who screwed it up that will have the resources to benefit from it. Meanwhile, everything will be drained from the poor.

If you listen to Rep. Kaptur, she doesn't say do nothing, she is saying what we do has to be done in a manner that protects the people. At the same time she says we have to do something.

The only other alternative is to create a world war.


well said. I think we have more common ground than not. My arguments against the bailout come more from the perspective of what it is now, and how it is being dealt with, not what it could be and how it could be better dealt with.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

It was regulatory failure.

Eight years of lassez-faire (sp?) policy by a collusive presidency allowed this to happen.

The "people with money" will hurt a little but they will weather the storm. The people without will be the ones that suffer.

In a sense, you've negated yourself.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Sean. . . believe it or not all, idealogically there is ALOT we agree on. I think at times we may look at certain events from a different angle.



I'm shaking.

[King of Snake]

Ron Paul's economic adviser. So essentially Ron Paul.

Yeah, I've also been watching and reading Paul's reaction to the crisis and the bailout and again I'm not an economy expert but his story does seem to make the most sense out of all the stories that I'm reading and hearing about this.

Ron Paul for president! ;)

[bas_I_am]

In a sense, you've negated yourself.
Please elaborate

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

:|

I have nothing other than a blank stare at the moment. Have to get back to ya on that.

[Deckard]

:|

I have nothing other than a blank stare at the moment. Have to get back to ya on that.
jOHN is Sarah Palin and I claim my £5.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

VERY GOOD DECKARD!!!!

I need to apologize for that comment.

I had no intentions of deterring our troops spirit. It's been bothering me how our situation in Iraq seems to have slipped everyone's mind what with all the money talk here back home. I have a (-) balance currently, so all these large firgures being throw around drive myself a bit absent minded and quick on the tongue while we have husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and most of all friends away from home.

Sincerest apology to everyone.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I dunno if it has been mentioned in this thread or not, and I am frankly far too tired and lazy to troll back through it all to check, but did anyone comment on the fact that $700 billion - the amount Paulson is proposing - is exactly the amount that the Iraq war is estimated to have cost the US so far?

Bizarre coincidence, eh? ;)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I dunno if it has been mentioned in this thread or not, and I am frankly far too tired and lazy to troll back through it all to check, but did anyone comment on the fact that $700 billion - the amount Paulson is proposing - is exactly the amount that the Iraq war is estimated to have cost the US so far?

Bizarre coincidence, eh? ;)

YOU ALWAYS IGNORE ME!

[Sean]

So I'm sure "world" isn't the appropriate forum to ask, but jOHN, are you on serious drugs these days or what? Seriously, I just don't understand what's happened to you....

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

So I'm sure "world" isn't the appropriate forum to ask, but jOHN, are you on serious drugs these days or what? Seriously, I just don't understand what's happened to you....


Riiiiight.

[Rog]

Any argument that says "money is bad! Let 'em all burn" is infantile. .

i never said money is bad:confused: but let them burn yes! just because i disagee with your monied view its infantile? these people bought us to this point and now they want our money to save them well fuck em! and fuck global capitalism|! the greedy bastards who bought this on us deserve the whole rotten system to go down and i won't be crying if it does.....even if i will be poorer. maybe less poor people will be exploited in the future by these scumbags.

[BeautifulBurnout]

i never said money is bad:confused: but let them burn yes! just because i disagee with your monied view its infantile? these people bought us to this point and now they want our money to save them well fuck em! and fuck global capitalism|! the greedy bastards who bought this on us deserve the whole rotten system to go down and i won't be crying if it does.....even if i will be poorer. maybe less poor people will be exploited in the future by these scumbags.

Word!

I can agree with you, even if I am sitting on a Northern Rock mortgage here. :D

I am absolutely not of the view that money is bad. It is what you do with it. Use it to create wealth from the suffering of other people, and you deserve everything you get. Use it to make the world a better place, and hats off to you.

But these gits are the Scrooge McDucks of the world and they are coming quacking to government to provide funds from the coffers filled by ordinary hard-working joes because they made themselves very rich and suddenly the golden goose isn't paying out any more. Cry me a fucking river...

Meanwhile, they all have offshore accounts and tax havens up to the earholes to avoid paying tax themselves. Poor things. Must be hard to cut down to only one tin of beluga caviar a week...

[BeautifulBurnout]

YOU ALWAYS IGNORE ME!

Awwww... I don't ignore you. I am just getting absent-minded in my old age! If you posted about this and I didn't remember, please forgive me.

Sean - jOHN likes to have a bit fun with his posts. I don't see anything wrong in that, really. I guess one could always seriously ignore him if one thinks he is getting tedious or weird, but I like a bit of light entertainment after a hard day :D

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Yeah, I think CEO's are pissed at me too.

[chuck]

Don't want to hijack the thread - as it's a good one. But have to agree with Sean on this one - and for me John's interjections do get a little tedious.

I always imagine this as a spoken conversation - that we're around a table and we come and go between tables/threads to add our piece, after listening to what others have to say. Sometimes we react vehemently, sometimes we're droll, sometimes we totally misread someone's comments.

John's commentary - as I imagine it in my head - spoken out loud - is generally irrelevant, with regards to the conversation that's taking place. (And yeah, I know there's a whole 'nother thread of therapy about why I'm imagining all these voices in my head. :))

Not disrespecting JR as an individual or a human - let's just say I've got a JR darktrain filter that works very well. I don't use the ignore function. It just makes these conversations seem even more dislocated.

I suppose I'm being an old bugger by thinking that most here would talk/explain themselves in the online form, much like they would in the real life form - and so I'm naturally confused by many of JR's comments.

Back on topic.

How is the bailout failure affecting you? (http://www.neatorama.com/2008/09/29/how-is-the-bailout-failure-affecting-you/)

Some interesting thoughts here, particularly with the long term view - and asking the valid question - how will it directly affect little old me.

I've been cutting back on some expenditure, being a bit more prudent with car use - I'm lucky enough to own my house - and payments are well under control. To be honest most of those cost cutting measures have been as a result of the oil price hikes over the winter. So all before this collapse.

That and the fact that I'm due to become a Dad for the first time in March of next year - it changes how you view the important things.

What you need to know - Bailout 101 (http://www.culture11.com/node/32500?from=feature)

A good summary with linkage there too.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

It will come full circle in the near future chuck.

Thanks for the link BTW.

Love the last paragraph.


Rebuttal:
tedious - tiresome because of length or dullness. Neither apply to me, you'll need to find a new word I guess.(I want my damn smiley things back)

[Troy McClure]

Vote is going on now in Senate. I'm watching on CSpan online. Obama, Biden and McCain all voted 'yes'. Passed 74 - 25.

Jason

[nosajmunson]

Vote is going on now in Senate. I'm watching on CSpan online. Obama, Biden and McCain all voted 'yes'. Passed 74 - 25.

Jason

Well, if McCain voted, wouldn't that count for more than the other senator's votes. I mean, he is the one who is going to fix this thing isn't he?

He does have like 9 houses and 13 cars. Plus his wife's dress at the RNC cost almost as much a the president's yearly salary. Yeah, old gramps McCain's vote should count more because he's got more "invested" in the market than 90% of America.

If he votes yes, then it should be a done deal. Too bad Palin can't vote in this. It's not cause she's the Gov. of Alaska. It's because she can't spell vote.

Seriously, I hope this does pass though. I'm stoked that the taxes taken out of my hard earned check can bailout a bunch of Wall Street Suits. I mean, I didn't need that money to care for my sick child or anything.
And don't worry Wall Street. I'm getting a good raise soon, so you'll have extra from me when you fuck up again next year!

Cheers!

[chuck]

Holy shit.

Stewart was pissed last night.

Kill Bill Vol 1 (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=186754&title=kill-bill-volume-1).

"Listen up Congress, get the fuck back to work!"

hahaha

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Come on, I'm bored.

Great Link. I'm totally bored again.

[bas_I_am]

. . . fuck global capitalism

take a moment to just think about this statement and the arena in which it was posted.


Do you see the ridiculousness yet??? (not trying to be condescending, really. . . .)


Ok. . here it is:

This is a forum dedicated to Underworld. A group of commercial artists that use technology developed through global capitalism. Who have a commercial art enterprise called Tomato that makes a shitload* of money creating promotional material for global capitalists.

If it wasn't for global capitalism there would be no underworld.
We wouldn't be here discussing this.

Global Capitalism is great. Unfortunately it only takes a few obnoxious drunks to ruin the party for everyone, but we have to keep the party going. Problem is, the bouncers have been rolling with the club kids and have shirked their responsibilites. We cant shut the party down, we need new bouncers.


*shitload used loosely here

[Rog]

Do you see the ridiculousness yet??? (not trying to be condescending, really. . . .)


If it wasn't for global capitalism there would be no underworld.
We wouldn't be here discussing this.



So because i am against global capitalism then i'm ridiculous????? you and your ilk are waaay too smug and think that the making of money is everything.......well it fuckin isn't.

As for the second part, if there were no global capitalism underworld would still exist but in a different form and the world's poor wouldn't have been exploited to the fuckin hilt by you (and my) countries greedy corporate bastards....... if that's ridiculous in your view then i feel sorry for you. take off your blinkers and see the real mess the world is in......

[bas_I_am]

So because i am against global capitalism then i'm ridiculous?????
No... you're ridiculous 'cause you cant fucking read that I said the statement was ridiculous.

you and your ilk are waaay too smug and think that the making of money is everything.......well it fuckin isn't.
No it's not everything. It's a means to an end.

Putting my daughter through college.
Paying for my interferon/ribavirin cocktail
That's important.

Talk about fucking smug, you should be ashamed of yourself!

if there were no global capitalism underworld would still exist but in a different form
This may be true, but they wouldn't have piece of crap macs to make their music on.
They wouldn't have planes to tour with.
They wouldn't have hotels to stay in.
They wouldn't have festivals to play at.
We'd be using smoke signals to say this to each other.

and the world's poor wouldn't have been exploited to the fuckin hilt by you (and my) countries greedy corporate bastards.The poor would be exploited despite the economic system as the evil greed would just find different ways to do it. The problem is greed not capitalism.

if that's ridiculous in your view then i feel sorry for you. take off your blinkers and see the real mess the world is in......Don't be alarmed by the loud pop. . .
its just your head. . .
Coming out of your ass

[King of Snake]

I'm with Bas on this. Just because people are taking advantage of the system doesn't mean the system itself is to blame. We have capitalism to thank for our way of life and standard of living (even though obviously these have their dark sides as well). The problem is that governments are trying to protect special interests and their big-money friends, thus undermining the system.

Governments bailing out failing companies are essentially saying "hey it's ok to fuck up. As long as you're "important" enough we'll just use the taxpayers money to help you out". That's not a fair and free market, nor is it capitalism.

[Deckard]

bas_i_am, I actually agree more with you on this too. But you've been nasty about two things I love: Macs, and Rog (in the platonic sense, Rog ;) ). So I'm gonna hold back from saying 'good post'. ;P

For my part, it's not about being for or against capitalism - but how much fairness and equality we want to cede to it, which I think is what you're saying anyway. I was recently listening to a discussion about the economic crisis in Japan last decade and how they operate a somewhat less dog-eat-dog version of capitalism than the US and UK. Another example would be Islamic banking which complies with Sharia Law - not something I endorse in its entirety (obviously), but there are aspects such as never charging interest (making money from money), and 'ethical' investment that show commerce can be practised in different and arguably more ethical ways if people want it to.

[Rog]

Putting my daughter through college.
Paying for my interferon/ribavirin cocktail
That's important.

Talk about fucking smug, you should be ashamed of yourself!



Well, you are lucky your daughter is able to go to college and you can buy the drugs you mention, the majority of the people in this world don't have the fuckin choice! i am NOT ashamed of myself in any way.......

maybe global capitalism has given us underworld but its also given us Paris fuckin Hilton and the like, the cult of celebrity, overhyped sports stars, hollywood and all that gross excess, your own countrymen making a fuckin fortune over the collapse of banks that they themselves instigated, poor countries being exploited for everything, blahdeblahdeblah....i could go on for hours but i won't bother cause i'm supposed to be the one with my head up my arse............:rolleyes:

[Strangelet]

For my part, it's not about being for or against capitalism - but how much fairness and equality we want to cede to it, which I think is what you're saying anyway.

You fucking nailed it, decks. you can have the super fantastic economic model #1 implemented, where on paper rainbows and daisy chains are meant to spontaneously occur across the land and it could still turn into a jack boot in the face without a strong foundation of ethics.

My favorite flavor is the free market. But I'd rather live in a strongly ethical communist regime over a dehumanizing and corrupt capitalist system anyday.

Nobody fucking talks about this. But I swear to god there's some nobel prizes in economics to be awarded if someone can scientifically quantify the importance of ethics to the success and wellbeing of an economic model.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I have a problem with the presumptions that:

a) "the market" and "supply and demand" exist almost as if they were natural laws, like the law of gravity. They are not. There is no such thing as a free market in real terms, in the same way as there has never been any such thing as communism in real terms. Neither have been practised - only bastardised substitute systems loosely based on the concepts; and

b) the capitalist system is the only system that would afford us a decent standard of living. It affords a decent standard of living to a relatively small minority of the earth's population, and does this by the exploitation of the larger majority - with so much wealth around, how come so many people are still living in poverty (http://www.teamstoendpoverty.org/wq_pages/en/visages/chiffres.php). I am fortunate that I fall into the relatively wealthy minority, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept that it is the only way to do things.

Bas_I_Am has a point, and he is entitled to put his point across. But, firstly, he seems not to be able to envisage a system where he wouldn't need to pay for his kids' college or healthcare and meds as it could be provided for by, for example a state-funded system.

Secondly I am disappointed that he chooses to revert to flame and insult to make his statement. That is the sort of ranting we see on political blogs, but it does nothing here except alienate people, imo.

That stance, for me, is the personification of Western Capitalism - arrogance, cock-suredness and an inability to entertain the notion of any other workable economic structure, perhaps for fear that somebody else might have a good point too, which undermines their belief system.

So let's rant and insult and belittle instead of engaging, cos that way we don't need to even consider what the other person is saying, much less question our own views...:rolleyes:

[King of Snake]

blaming all of western culture's failings on capitalism is a bit of stretch imo. Excess is part of human nature. It becomes a problem when people are no longer held accountable for their actions. That's more of a cultural problem than a purely capitalistic one I think.

[Strangelet]

I have problems with presumptions that

1) the free market is inherently and exploitative system, more so than socialism. A free market is a negative system in the sense that, while socialism relies on a government maintained apparatus, free market strives for the removal of it. That is not to say the free market == anarchy. It simply reduces the role of government to an objective referee, enforcing rules that aren't meant to favor any particular lobby.

2) the free market == laissez-faire capitalism. The free market is meant to be the freedom of minds to develop whatever system they choose from the grass roots level. Several instances of strong micro-socialistic organizations have existed in the most lawless sections of the U.S. in the 19th century. See law of consecration.

3) capitalism, not colonialism or mercantilism (strong government/business partnership. See east india company) is what has kept the 3rd world in such a shit mess. Seriously people. lets look at this a little closer. You got coke and paris hilton on one hand, British Petroleum on the other. who's getting the prize here?

[Sean]

blaming all of western culture's failings on capitalism is a bit of stretch imo. Excess is part of human nature. It becomes a problem when people are no longer held accountable for their actions. That's more of a cultural problem than a purely capitalistic one I think.Well said.

[bas_I_am]

Nobody fucking talks about this. But I swear to god there's some nobel prizes in economics to be awarded if someone can scientifically quantify the importance of ethics to the success and well being of an economic model.
1994 John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) and John Harsanyi

[King of Snake]

I have a problem with the presumptions that:
Bas_I_Am has a point, and he is entitled to put his point across. But, firstly, he seems not to be able to envisage a system where he wouldn't need to pay for his kids' college or healthcare and meds as it could be provided for by, for example a state-funded system.



The idea that it's "provided by the state" and therefore you don't have to pay for it is misleading. There's no such thing as a free lunch, you're still paying for all that stuff through more taxation.
(though I'm sure you realise this ;))

btw about the free market and why are there still so many people living in poverty: well for one thing if european governments wouldn't be working against the free market by subsidising their own agricultural industries, there would be a lot more opportunity to make money in the third world by exporting food to europe. If there was a true free market the situation would probably stabalise at some point. Of course that would mean less wealth for us so we're not actually prepared to take that step.

[Strangelet]

1994 John Nash (A Beautiful Mind) and John Harsanyi

game theory is not exactly what I had in mind but yeah that's definitely on the subject.

[bas_I_am]

I have problems with presumptions that
1) the free market is inherently and exploitative system


Actually, the problem is that its shortcomings are NOT inherent. You and I could participate in a closed capitalistic economy, operate in a completely ethical manner and still make independent decisions that are detrimental to the economy. Or we could make other decisions, still ethical, that are good for our economy. There is no causal relationship between our decisions, our economy and the utlimate outcome.

2) the free market == laissez-faire capitalism. The free market is meant to be the freedom of minds to develop whatever system they choose from the grass roots level.

Actually, free-market means that I am free to sell my/buy you property for what ever price I can get. Nothing more nothing less.

3) capitalism, not colonialism or mercantilism (strong government/business partnership. See east india company)
No, capitalism + avarice

Laissez-faire capitalism can but not always lead to a suboptimal use of resources. But this does not mean capitalism is inherently bad.

Again I refer you to the work of Nash, Selten, Harsanyi

[Rog]

I have a problem with the presumptions that:

a) "the market" and "supply and demand" exist almost as if they were natural laws, like the law of gravity. They are not. There is no such thing as a free market in real terms, in the same way as there has never been any such thing as communism in real terms. Neither have been practised - only bastardised substitute systems loosely based on the concepts; and

b) the capitalist system is the only system that would afford us a decent standard of living. It affords a decent standard of living to a relatively small minority of the earth's population, and does this by the exploitation of the larger majority - with so much wealth around, how come so many people are still living in poverty (http://www.teamstoendpoverty.org/wq_pages/en/visages/chiffres.php). I am fortunate that I fall into the relatively wealthy minority, but that doesn't mean that I have to accept that it is the only way to do things.

Bas_I_Am has a point, and he is entitled to put his point across. But, firstly, he seems not to be able to envisage a system where he wouldn't need to pay for his kids' college or healthcare and meds as it could be provided for by, for example a state-funded system.

Secondly I am disappointed that he chooses to revert to flame and insult to make his statement. That is the sort of ranting we see on political blogs, but it does nothing here except alienate people, imo.

That stance, for me, is the personification of Western Capitalism - arrogance, cock-suredness and an inability to entertain the notion of any other workable economic structure, perhaps for fear that somebody else might have a good point too, which undermines their belief system.

So let's rant and insult and belittle instead of engaging, cos that way we don't need to even consider what the other person is saying, much less question our own views...:rolleyes:

more eloquently put than i ever could...........

[dubman]

there is a point where people just talk complete nonsense though.
not saying it's in this thread, because it isn't
but there's an awful lot of opinion where a receptive audience is more than it deserves.

[Strangelet]

there is a point where people just talk complete nonsense though.
not saying it's in this thread, because it isn't
but there's an awful lot of opinion where a receptive audience is more than it deserves.


seriously. that's why i'm not responding. my level of information is tapped after two pages on this thread. just have to see what happens to the market after the bailout. this next few months should prove interesting.

[Rog]

btw about the free market and why are there still so many people living in poverty: well for one thing if european governments wouldn't be working against the free market by subsidising their own agricultural industries, there would be a lot more opportunity to make money in the third world by exporting food to europe.
.

a large proportion of the third world cannot grow enough food to feed its own people let alone export it to europe! i find it incredible that you can buy fish farmed in zimbabwe at the local supermarkets today when most of their people can't get enough to eat. do you think that flogging their food while their people are starving to earn a bit of foreign currency is a good idea? same for kenya.........

[Rog]

once governments intervene (with bailouts) does it cease to be a free market?

[Rog]

Just because people are taking advantage of the system doesn't mean the system itself is to blame.

i disagree, it's because people can take advantage of the system ( to such a disasterous effect) as it stands then the system most definitely is to blame.

[Strangelet]

a large proportion of the third world cannot grow enough food to feed its own people let alone export it to europe! i find it incredible that you can buy fish farmed in zimbabwe at the local supermarkets today when most of their people can't get enough to eat. do you think that flogging their food while their people are starving to earn a bit of foreign currency is a good idea? same for kenya.........

This is only because of the predatory trade laws created by the G8 and other international bodies that hide fascism/mercantilism behind a soft smile of free market trade. If you need to find examples of the evils wrought from free market economics you need to cite one that actually involves principles of free market economics, not corrupt oligarchic collusion between governments and multinational CEO's.

True free market principles would have us grow and raise locally, because its cheaper, not import beef from brazilian rain forest lands to Utah because somebody had an inside connection to powerful governments.

[Strangelet]

i disagree, it's because people can take advantage of the system ( to such a disasterous effect) as it stands then the system most definitely is to blame.

for what system of government/economics is this not the case?

[Strangelet]

once governments intervene (with bailouts) does it cease to be a free market?


exactly. as I'm sure i've mentioned earlier, i'll argue that the result is closer to fascism than socialism.

Its important to put this in perspective. We bailed out the airlines right after 9/11 because we need airlines. We bailed out the big three american auto makers because the jackasses thought SUV's were the way to make them richer than God, because we need an automotive industry. We've been bailing out since Bush came into office. Seems like you can derive from this a few theories.

1. bail outs do not in themselves produce better economic conditions from which further bailouts are obsolete.

2. we assert the argument that anything government can do corporations can do better but then basically graft the corporations onto the governing body so that the result is a government-corporate complex of a many headed hydra against which no small businesses or middle class enterprise can hope to compete against. Which is why the whole fucking country is working for walmart.

So here's what free market theory says as far as I can see it. Bail-out fuck all and take this on the chops. Remove priveledges that allowed such detachments from reality, and place regulations that bring all the acid tripping harvard business school grads down to earth.

If that means we don't have banks for a bit. Fine. Serves us right for being uneducated about the practices of the banks we were patronizing. If that means we don't have cheap air travel for a few months? Great. Serves us right for allowing these douche bags such a choke hold on things. Have to buy german and japanese cars? awesome. Detroit has been responsible for stopping innovation and massive fuel guzzling for decades. Fuck em. Let the smarter, more ethical people come in their place. That's the free market. And I'm wondering how you would argue that such a process is inherently oppressive or evil.

[King of Snake]

a large proportion of the third world cannot grow enough food to feed its own people let alone export it to europe! i find it incredible that you can buy fish farmed in zimbabwe at the local supermarkets today when most of their people can't get enough to eat. do you think that flogging their food while their people are starving to earn a bit of foreign currency is a good idea? same for kenya.........

Obviously I'm not suggesting that countries experiencing food shortages export whatever food they have left. But developing and third world countries have an enormous potential for agricultural production. The problem is that because EU and US protectionism the third world farmers are simply unable to compete with subsidised (not to mention mechanised) farmers from the EU and US. In fact we are dumping our own subsidized overstocks of food for cheap into foreign markets, depriving farmers there from making a decent living.

I'm sure you can find a lot of info online about the problems that our market protectionism is causing for the third world.
like here http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3226


According to the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, EU protectionism deprives developing countries of nearly $700 billion in export income a year. That's almost 14 times more than poor countries receive in foreign aid. EU protectionism is a continuing tragedy, causing unnecessary hunger and disease. The Cold War "iron curtain" between East and West has been replaced with a customs curtain between North and South.
EU protectionism takes a toll on Europeans, too. The rich countries' protectionism costs their citizens almost $1 billion every day. At that rate, you could fly all the cows in the OECD, 60 million of them, around the world every year in business class. In addition, the cows could be given almost $3,000 each in pocket money to spend in tax-free shops during their stopovers.hey, $700 billion, that number just keeps popping up doesn't it? ;)

this is also why i think that the whole foreign aid system is a big sham designed to keep our conscience clear so we won't have to deal with the real problems.

[Rog]

Obviously I'm not suggesting that countries experiencing food shortages export whatever food they have left. But developing and third world countries have an enormous potential for agricultural production. The problem is that because EU and US protectionism the third world farmers are simply unable to compete with subsidised (not to mention mechanised) farmers from the EU and US. In fact we are dumping our own subsidized overstocks of food for cheap into foreign markets, depriving farmers there from making a decent living.

I'm sure you can find a lot of info online about the problems that our market protectionism is causing for the third world.
like here http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3226

hey, $700 billion, that number just keeps popping up doesn't it? ;)

this is also why i think that the whole foreign aid system is a big sham designed to keep our conscience clear so we won't have to deal with the real problems.

i know you weren't suggesting that, it's just that the whole system is geared against the third world and it makes me unhappy. I'll check out the link later as i'm at work now;).
It also bothers me when you rightly talk about the agricultural potential of the third world as i read an article the other day about using prime agricultural land in south asia for growing palm oil to produce petrol:(
Sorry to go on about this but i think the whole system is broken and needs replacing with something fairer - not bailing out. With that i'll say no more as i don't want to alienate anyone more than i have done already:o

[Rog]

exactly. as I'm sure i've mentioned earlier, i'll argue that the result is closer to fascism than socialism.

Its important to put this in perspective. We bailed out the airlines right after 9/11 because we need airlines. We bailed out the big three american auto makers because the jackasses thought SUV's were the way to make them richer than God, because we need an automotive industry. We've been bailing out since Bush came into office. Seems like you can derive from this a few theories.

1. bail outs do not in themselves produce better economic conditions from which further bailouts are obsolete.

2. we assert the argument that anything government can do corporations can do better but then basically graft the corporations onto the governing body so that the result is a government-corporate complex of a many headed hydra against which no small businesses or middle class enterprise can hope to compete against. Which is why the whole fucking country is working for walmart.

So here's what free market theory says as far as I can see it. Bail-out fuck all and take this on the chops. Remove priveledges that allowed such detachments from reality, and place regulations that bring all the acid tripping harvard business school grads down to earth.

If that means we don't have banks for a bit. Fine. Serves us right for being uneducated about the practices of the banks we were patronizing. If that means we don't have cheap air travel for a few months? Great. Serves us right for allowing these douche bags such a choke hold on things. Have to buy german and japanese cars? awesome. Detroit has been responsible for stopping innovation and massive fuel guzzling for decades. Fuck em. Let the smarter, more ethical people come in their place. That's the free market. And I'm wondering how you would argue that such a process is inherently oppressive or evil.

Good post! if the free market worked properly then as you rightly state i couldn't possibly argue against it.........

[cacophony]

We bailed out the airlines right after 9/11 because we need airlines.

and the airlines are arguably worse than ever before.

We bailed out the big three american auto makers because the jackasses thought SUV's were the way to make them richer than God, because we need an automotive industry.

and there's still been no progress from these companies to move towards significantly more fuel efficient vehicles.


bailouts don't fix anything. they prop up failing industries so those industries can worsen and continue the failed policies that put them into the position of needing a bailout in the first place. this newest bailout will be no different.

[Strangelet]

Good post! if the free market worked properly then as you rightly state i couldn't possibly argue against it.........

and I concede that it is very very far from working properly. Which is what we have in common, I think deep down we want to see this whole shit house operation go down. And maybe that is infantile, as bas_I_am argues. Or maybe continually existing in such a cultural environment as this is what is truly infantile.

land of the free home of the brave my ass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnbNm6hoBXc&eurl=http://www.infowars.com/?p=5061)

we'll see how this works. in the mean time there's always beer. cheers

[bas_I_am]

My bet, it is back down to 10300 by friday. If we break through 10200 it will fall to 9900.boy I hit that on the head didn't ?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

boy I hit that on the head didn't ?


Are you Jesus?

[bas_I_am]

My bet, it is back down to 10300 by friday. If we break through 10200 it will fall to 9900.

Look out for 9700

Are you Jesus?
If it helps you sleep at night.

[bas_I_am]

Look out for 9700
Theres no stopping it now.
This could fall to 9400.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

"I don't know how he sleeps at night."

uuum, when you have a $5K matress(and possibly a whore on each side), you sleep pretty well. I think.

[Strangelet]

Theres no stopping it now.
This could fall to 9400.

So bas_you_are.......


you seem to have a handle on the market's behavior. And you also argued in this thread in support of the bail out.

I'm curious why this precipitous drop is in no way an indication that the bail out failed to address the fundamental problems of the economy and everyone knows it, only further gauranteed a condition of stagflation circa 1978.

[Deckard]

It's weird, but already, economic crisis fatigue is kicking in.

Even though today was a very very bad day.

I gather next year will be when a lot of the impact from this stuff will be felt in the real world.

[Strangelet]

oh looky (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/10/03/army.unit/)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States military's Northern Command, formed in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks, is dedicating a combat infantry team to deal with catastrophes in the U.S., including terrorist attacks and natural disasters...
...and pissed off mobs of unemployed victims of the housing bust.

At least this is a more honest approach. I mean before the bush admin would send blackwater mercenaries on u.s. soil to get around the pesky no deployed army on domestic soil thingie.

Ah fuck it. lets just wave to our friendly neighborhood navy seal on the way to work and get used to it.




The Army says the non-lethal training is an outgrowth of missions that troops have faced around the world in recent years.
"We need a lot more in our toolbox in order to deal with angry people on the street," said Col. Barry Johnson of U.S. Army North.


Yeah..... that's really good to hear there, sport.

[Strangelet]

Ooh it gets better... (http://www.times-standard.com/othervoices/ci_10643629)


For the second time since Hurricane Katrina hit in August 2005, an active Army unit --1st Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division -- has been set up to quell civil unrest and do crowd control within our borders. And this time it's a permanent mission.

a.
The report stated that the 1st Brigade Combat Team would be deployed within the country and would work with civil authorities to “put down civil unrest.” On the surface this may seem benign, but this mission marks the first time an active military unit has assigned to NorthCom, the joint command established in 2002 to control federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate with civil authorities.
The unit is under the daily control of U.S. Army North, NorthCom, the Army component of Northern Command, and is now on-call for natural or manmade emergencies and disasters, including terrorist attacks.
The Army says this mission is ongoing
and active duty units will be rotated in and out of the country. The commander of this unit, Col. Roger Cloutier, also said that his troops will be trained to use nonlethal weapons designed to subdue unruly or dangerous individuals without killing them.

This is another first; the first time a nonlethal package has been fielded the Army, according to Cloutier. Why does that make me uneasy? The package includes equipment to raise a hasty road block, spike strips for slowing, stopping or controlling traffic; shields and batons; and beanbag bullets.


So Sarc. I've got some good news and some bad news for you, mate. You won't have to be apart from your girl on your next tour. Its going to be waaaay closer to home. The bad news is you might be rounding up her neighbors.

[BeautifulBurnout]

This leaves me feeling very weird. :eek:

That's about all I can say atm until it sinks in...

[bas_I_am]

Ooh it gets better...

So Sarc. I've got some good news and some bad news for you, mate. You won't have to be apart from your girl on your next tour. Its going to be waaaay closer to home. The bad news is you might be rounding up her neighbors.

this is totally unconstitutional. any military deployed inside us borders falls under the command of the governor of the state(s) in which they are deployed

[bas_I_am]

So bas_you_are.......

you seem to have a handle on the market's behavior. And you also argued in this thread in support of the bail out. I'm curious why this precipitous drop is in no way an indication that the bail out failed to address the fundamental problems of the economy and everyone knows it, only further gauranteed a condition of stagflation circa 1978.never said it would fix the stock market. I've not been concerned with wall street. I only said it was necessary to prevent total meltdown of the credit markets.

And you are right to be concerned about stagflation, too. what needs to happen is that interest rates must rise to demand driven levels so new credit is handed out with due diligence.

difficult for me to comment right now as I am typing this on my capitalist created smartphone.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Hey bas_I_am, being you have a better grip on the financial market than most the rest of US. We could use your help for understanding this a bit better.

A recent Time article states: $2 Trillion lost from retirement accounts during the past 15 month period.

Where do these lost funds end up?

[Sean]

Ooh it gets better... (http://www.times-standard.com/othervoices/ci_10643629)


So Sarc. I've got some good news and some bad news for you, mate. You won't have to be apart from your girl on your next tour. Its going to be waaaay closer to home. The bad news is you might be rounding up her neighbors.Umm.............shit.

[bas_I_am]

A recent Time article states: $2 Trillion lost from retirement accounts during the past 15 month period.

Where do these lost funds end up?

The loss is primarily on paper. Most retirement accounts in the US are mostly mutual funds invested via 401k's and various other investment devices. Their value depreciated severely.

One of the big issues concerning this, is that alot of people had money in bond funds that were touted as fairly safe, but the way the bubble burst they felt the brunt of the storm.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

The loss is primarily on paper. Most retirement accounts in the US are mostly mutual funds invested via 401k's and various other investment devices. Their value depreciated severely.

One of the big issues concerning this, is that alot** of people had money in bond funds that were touted as fairly safe, but the way the bubble burst they felt the brunt of the storm.

Ahhhh, I get it. It's kinda like that supernatural phenomenon referred to as "Ghost Shit". Ya know, like when you swear you're taking the biggest dump that's ever been dumped ever. I mean, you're gripping the sides of your loo, turning red in the face, eyes watering. You swear there's gonna be a Hiendenburg(sp?) of dumps chilling in a spa treatment, but when you get up there's nothing there. Like that?

*subject predicate
**I think. I might be wrong.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Hehehehe

jOHN's bowel movements aside...

I heard someone on the radio refer to it as "imaginary money".

In other words I am a lot "poorer" this year than I was last year because about £30k at least has been wiped off the value of my house. If I had sold the house last year and hidden the money under my bed, it would have been real money, but cos I haven't it is only imaginary. :D

[bas_I_am]

I heard someone on the radio refer to it as "imaginary money".

In other words I am a lot "poorer" this year than I was last year because about £30k at least has been wiped off the value of my house. If I had sold the house last year and hidden the money under my bed, it would have been real money, but cos I haven't it is only imaginary. :D

Some might argue it is ALL imaginary money as there is no gold to back it up, just the word of the governments.

And we all know how solid that is.

BTW. . . look for DJI floor @ 9100. Then start buying consumer non-cyclical goods such as Kraft, Heinz, Heineken, Chlorox, Church & Dwight.

But wait for it to hit 9100 and start rebounding. If it falls through it could go to 8700.

[Deckard]

bas_i_am - we're relying on you to tell us when we need to withdrawal everything and stick into the proverbial shoe box under the bed.

If you could do that for us, thanks. ;)

[Sean]

My strategy is that I'm keeping my eyes open for any good, uninhabited caves around where I live. I hear there's a great one in Vasquez Rocks (http://parks.co.la.ca.us/vasquez_narea.html) where banditos used to hide out back in the old west. The wife and I should probably start packing for the move soon....

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Is it just me, or does Gordon look all stoned and ready to get work done?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1848243,00.html

[Deckard]

THE government is to invest £500bn of your money in British banks so they can lend it back to you with interest. The historic move is being hailed as a lifeline for the financial system - as long as nobody asks too many questions.

More on this story from the Daily Mash (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/banks-to-lend-you-your-own-money-200810081308/). :D

[bas_I_am]

Corrupt Banking System (pt 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfXavRTM4Fg)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yvRZoM-2r8)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 4) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0p8LepIuVM)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXZ_Hs1g6U)

[testudo]

Really confused?

I urge you to listen to this:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=365

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Corrupt Banking System (pt 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfXavRTM4Fg)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yvRZoM-2r8)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 4) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0p8LepIuVM)
Corrupt Banking System (pt 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXZ_Hs1g6U)

I knew that. Really, I do. It is nice to have a refresher course sometimes.

I do need to add, the pizazz & charismatic comic relief went well with my home-brewed caramel french roast. I put a spot of whiskey innit too. ooops.

[BeautifulBurnout]

More on this story from the Daily Mash (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/banks-to-lend-you-your-own-money-200810081308/). :D

Excellent!

I particularly like:
Meanwhile, Emma Bradford, a sales manager from Bath, said: "Why doesn't the government just give my money to me so I can buy stuff from businesses who will then make a profit and put it in a bank?"

But Mr Darling insisted: "Shut up."

She's got a point though, eh? :p

[bas_I_am]

Damn I am getting good!
look for DJI floor @ 9100. bounced all day between 9100 and 9200
If it falls through it could go to 8700. until 3:00, then it fell right through.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

If you haven't seen the new RIGHT:CHANGE commercial, there's a comparison of Obama's 10 yr budget plan of $3.5 Trillion being more than 3x the bailout.

Thanks to a certain King, I learned dimensional analysis in physics. Learn this today and work out the real difference comparing a 10 year period(Obama's) to the, say, the 2 week period of the bailout plan. BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Deckard]

Dow Jones average when Bush started his speech, 10:24 am: -89.

Dow Jones average when Bush finished his speech, 10:33 am: -185




Go George.

[Deckard]

The news outlets are really going to town with all these cliched shots of worried-looking traders, holding their mouth, slapping their head, pressing their eyes.

Somebody should start a gallery.

Here ya go Rog - just for you. ;)

http://i33.tinypic.com/1603bpt.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/20fx5hx.png
http://i35.tinypic.com/2qxykh4.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/25qfb84.jpg

I know I shouldn't laugh, but they're everywhere, these pics.

The bottom one's just great.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I keep having visions of men crying to their wives when they get home, "I don't wanna have to blow* jOHN in hell!"

I gots nothing in size compared to the big red guy. Besides, I wouldn't give 'em the pleasure.

I'm gonna totally get my ass kicked someday.



*ya know, like, with a hair-dryer.

[chuck]

The news outlets are really going to town with all these cliched shots of worried-looking traders, holding their mouth, slapping their head, pressing their eyes.

Somebody should start a gallery.



And lo, some smartass who wanted to create the latest internet meme, did so.

Sad Guys on Trading Floors (http://sadguysontradingfloors.tumblr.com/)

tumblr rules.

[Sean]

I've been saying for a while that I think global society could benefit from getting knocked back to the stone ages a bit. Last night at like 1:30am pacific time, CNN interrupted it's scheduled broadcast of Larry King with global news reporting the massive drops in Asian and European markets as well. After a brief moment of "oh crap" style nervousness, I realized that maybe this is what I've been hoping for. Maybe this will be the "reset" button we need to get the world back on track a bit. Especially if Obama's at the helm of the US so that we can reforge important global relationships and such.

[BeautifulBurnout]

LOL

These guys are so full of shit (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/10/executivesalaries-creditcrunch) if they think we are buying their fairy tales any longer.

In the UK they always used to whine that they just had to pay city bosses huge bonuses cos otherwise they would run away and work in Wall Street and we would all be fuxx0rd.

Well, Wall Sheet is up to its ears in as much shit as we are and now they have found a fascinating new angle: run away to India!
"If one bank holds down pay, then staff will leave and go to one that doesn't," said one fund manager. "And if London becomes badly paid then there will be an exodus to Mumbai, Shanghai or Dubai."Yeah, 'course they will. :rolleyes:

Let's get one thing straight, all you Tristans and Julians. Cut down on the caviar and the £40,000 wine bills at Petrus (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1839963.stm) cos guess what?

WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU ANY MORE! :mad:

Edit: I would actually consider selling my son into bonded labour for a 1900 Chateau d'Yquem, though.....

[Deckard]

And lo, some smartass who wanted to create the latest internet meme, did so.

Sad Guys on Trading Floors (http://sadguysontradingfloors.tumblr.com/)

tumblr rules.
Well done sir! It had to be there somewhere!

I've been saying for a while that I think global society could benefit from getting knocked back to the stone ages a bit. Last night at like 1:30am pacific time, CNN interrupted it's scheduled broadcast of Larry King with global news reporting the massive drops in Asian and European markets as well. After a brief moment of "oh crap" style nervousness, I realized that maybe this is what I've been hoping for. Maybe this will be the "reset" button we need to get the world back on track a bit.
Yes I know what you mean. The idea of a reset button is optimistic. It's just wondering when the heck it's gonna actually arrive. At the moment, every measure, every announcement, every package seems to be met with.... more falls.

WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU ANY MORE!
That's at least something good to have come out of all this :) even if, sadly, many of us end up paying a very hefty price over the coming months and years for this moment of enlightenment/revelation.

[Sean]

Yes I know what you mean. The idea of a reset button is optimistic. It's just wondering when the heck it's gonna actually arrive. At the moment, every measure, every announcement, every package seems to be met with.... more falls.In my mind, the reset button IS the plummeting markets. We're approaching a time where, in my opinion, we'll need to do more than simply recover and get back to where we once were - we need to rethink economic philosophies to an extent. Personally, I think the main lesson that's being driven home is that the stability of the entire economy was resting far too squarely on a tiny handful of giant companies. So maybe the future will include something along the lines of regulating just how big and powerful an individual company can be in order to avoid these kinds of staggering collapses.

And following the same line of thinking, it may be easier to pare down the size and scope of the government (smaller government is a conservative ideal I still hold) as a result. It seems to me that the bigger and more powerful companies are, the bigger and more powerful government needs to be in order to be capable of keeping companies from abusing their power. Who knows?

Do keep in mind that some of the core ideas in this theory are stoner ideas, but it still makes sense to me......

[chuck]

Let me be the first to say it. Overused meme that it is.

Economics 2.0!!

FTW

Totally with you on the reset of the system. Not that it's overdue or that it's inately Baaad. Just that I like the rise of things like Make, the return of DIY and individuals hacking and remaking things - not because they have to - but because it's worthwhile work.

I use freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) - it's cool just hooking up with people, of a similar ilk - who have stuff that they no longer need - and are happy to hand it on, or around. Instead of it just going in the bin and taking up space in some landfill.

This isn't green-hippy-SAVETHEPLANET talk. It's simple things, done slowly, done well - and making some small difference. It's not revolution - it's evolution - but with tools that are about connecting.

Actually - it's not 2.0 anything. It's just getting on with it. But realising that we've not really come that far from the excesses of Bonfire of the Vanities - and despite all the best efforts of E! Online and the Living Channel - it's OK to just do. And it's how you "do" with those around you - that determine the quality of your society.

Now. Where's that joint? ;)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Now. Where's that joint? ;)


Keep rubbing it in fuckers. Not to single you out chuck, but you are one of them too!!!!!

[chuck]

Further to my thoughts, Nat Torkington makes good points about some of the positives that might come out of this meltdown.

Effect of the depression on Technology (http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/effect-of-the-depression-on-te.html)

"As Phil Torrone said (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/09/we_can_make_things_better.html), people will have more time than money. This is good for open source software, but also for hardware and Make-style reconnection with the objects around us. The low-cost high-impact physical events we've created (Ignite, hacker meetups, coworking spaces, foo/bar camps) will thrive even as big-ticket conferences feel the effects of pinched pennies. The killer app in the "web meets world" space may just come from a Maker with spare time who sees a great need."

Some good thoughts in the comments as well.

[Sean]

Now. Where's that joint? ;)Doesn't really sound like you need one. Really great post. Thanks.

[Deckard]

"The world financial system is teetering on the "brink of systemic meltdown", the head of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has warned in Washington."

IMF in global 'meltdown' warning (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7665515.stm)

Oh that's gotta make for some interesting trading first thing Monday.

Are we really this doomed?

[chuck]

Heh. I liked this image from the sidebar of your link Deckard.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/2932724026_e29baec8cb.jpg?v=0

Politicians attempting to be measured. Bankers losing their heads.

Where's Chicken Little when you really need him?

I'm off to work in the garden for a few hours - hedge to trim, compost to turn. It's a beautiful day down here - spring is here and you can smell summer on the way - cut grass, and beers on the deck.

World keeps turning.

[chuck]

And in case you're tired of stocks and trading shares.

I suggest you go here (http://www.neatorama.com/2008/10/11/butt-trading-center/).

Some of you may get better value for money than others.

:D;)

[chuck]

Right - sorry for triple posting. And I really am going out to the garden now. Wanted to pass on Tim O'Reilly's thoughts though.

Thoughts on Financial Crisis (http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/thoughts-on-financial-crisis.html)

Again, really thought provoking, interesting and inspiring ideas. Poetry as well!

"That Rilke quote, from the poem The Man Watching (http://www.cdra.org.za/creativity/Rainer%20Maria%20Rilke%20-%20The%20Man%20Watching.htm), translated by Robert Bly, has this great line about letting ourselves be washed over by events greater than ourselves: I can tell by the way the trees beat, after
so many dull days, on my worried windowpanes
that a storm is coming... What we choose to fight is so tiny!
What fights us is so great!
If only we would let ourselves be dominated
as things do by some immense storm,
we would become strong too, and not need names.
I've been feeling a lot like that. Watchful. Listening. Learning. Not rushing about fighting the small things of the moment but letting the storm wash in. It will change us. That can be good. And as the storm washes through, it will become clear what we have to do. "

...

"
We don't know yet how problems in the overall economy will affect our business. But what we can do now are the things we ought to be doing anyway:

Work on stuff that matters: Assuming that the world does go to hell in a handbasket, what would we still want to be working on? What will people need to know? (Chances are good that they need to know these things in a world where we all continue to muddle along as well.)
Exert visionary leadership in our markets. In tough times, people look for inspiration and vision. The big ideas we care about will still matter, perhaps even more when people are looking for a way forward. (Remember how Web 2.0 gave hope and a story line to an industry struggling its way out of the dotcom bust.)
Be prudent in what we spend money on. Get rid of the "nice to do" things, and focus on the "must do" things to accelerate them. These are all things we should be doing every day anyway. Sometimes, though, a crisis can provide an unexpected gift, a reminder that nobody promised us tomorrow, so we need to make what we do today count."

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Me Mum's alive and well thank you very much.

A bit of gardening as well. My pop keeps digging up the weeds too. The good ones. I just can't win.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

As far as the economy, I'd suggest reading a few books on the survival techniques used by the People of America during The Great Depression. I don't believe we have the same kind of crisis on our hands as then, but EVERY LITTLE THING COUNTS.

Another example: Washing dishes by hand. We have a dual sink, one side for washing, one side for drying. We do not drain the water from breakfast/lunch dishes, and add a little bleach for rinse of dinner dishes. I know this isn't going to save the world, but I truely believe every little thing counts. Pennies to dollar ratio.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

And a third post just so you don't feel like the only troll 'round these parts.

[Strangelet]

chuck you are a treasure. keep them posts coming, mate.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Guess who ends up paying for this, c'mon(or cum'on, you pick, trust me, it applies, sometimes, maybe, kinda, sorta) guess, c'mon guess.


http://redtape.msnbc.com/2008/10/credit-cards-at.html


You don't realize the parties ya'll paid for. Too. (insert winky)

'tis quite funny now, no?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

...& God said, "Let there be light".


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1850410,00.html


Let's hope everone takes off their sunglasses.

Ever notice how the only shades you don't lose are the pair that you bought for $10 at the fleamarket? I've got a little tickling chuckle in the back of my throat.

[Strangelet]

...& God said, "Let there be light".


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1850410,00.html


Let's hope everone takes off their sunglasses.

Ever notice how the only shades you don't lose are the pair that you bought for $10 at the fleamarket? I've got a little tickling chuckle in the back of my throat.


think i might have to encorporate some crackers and cheese with tonight's drinking game. emphasis on the crackers

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

think i might have to encorporate some crackers and cheese with tonight's drinking game. emphasis on the crackers


I hope you don't have red wine. People will call you gay.

And I'm not sharing mine.

[Deckard]

think i might have to encorporate some crackers and cheese with tonight's drinking game. emphasis on the crackers
Lol! Don't know if I can stay up til 3.30am this time - the first of the winter bugs has struck. Maybe some brandy will keep me going.

Anyway, hopefully McCain tonight will look even more shaky following today's news:

US and UK shares slump as recession looms (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/article4947445.ece)

World markets slide again as recession fears resurface (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/15/creditcrunch-globaleconomy)

"London shares suffer fifth worst one-day fall ever while Dow Jones falls below 9000"

[Sean]

I'll actually be missing the live broadcast of the debate tonight in favor of having a beach volleyball lesson. I've been obsessing about this campaign so much that the idea of being out on the beach playing rather than watching the debate sounds pretty great to me.

I'm hoping Roland Martin is right about what he's expecting might happen tonight (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/15/martin-obama-is-setting-up-mccain-for-the-political-rope-a-dope/) though...

Remember the fight against George Foreman in Zaire? My man damn near went to sleep on the ropes as Foreman flailed away, using his energy to pound away at Ali. And at the right time, the Greatest of All Time started blasting away, eventually knocking Foreman out.

That's exactly what Sen. Barack Obama is doing to Sen. John McCain.

At no time during the Democratic primary has Obama tried to pick a fight. So when he told ABC last week that when it came to bringing up 1960s radical Bill Ayers on the campaign trail, McCain "wasn't willing to say it to my face," I instantly saw it as Obama throwing down the gauntlet.

Knowing full well that the senior senator from Arizona has a hot temper, he couldn't resist the bait.

"He has probably ensured that it will come up this time," McCain told a Missouri radio station.

And by doing so tonight, Obama will be ready to pounce.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I'll actually be missing the live broadcast of the debate tonight in favor of having a beach volleyball lesson. [/I]


Is this those one of the those nude ones again?

And Deckard, should I PM some brandy recipes?

[bas_I_am]

Ever notice how the only shades you don't lose are the pair that you bought for $10 at the fleamarket? I've got a little tickling chuckle in the back of my throat.

Oh yeah. . stock pick:

FGX INTERNATIONAL HOLDINGS (FGXI (http://research.scottrade.com/public/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=FGXI):NASDAQ) makers of foster-grant, gargoyles, angels and various other cheap sunglasses lines as well as magnivision readers.

Also makes store branded sunglasses and readers for walmart, walgreens and rite-aid.

And if capitalism is going to hell in a hand basket, you might as wll make money off it - look at some short biased ETFs. ProShares UltraShort Oil and Gas DUG (http://research.scottrade.com/public/etf/summary/summary.asp?symbol=US;DUG) (short oil and gas) went up 32% today (2% more in after hours,) look for another 15% today as asia is going down as we speak.

Take a look at Dedicated Short Bias ETFs (http://research.scottrade.com/public/etf/allExchange/all_etfs.asp?alletfs=true&crit=LP.LCClassificationId:LIKE:DSB)

Don't buy right now, but wait for the dow to bounce back (which it will as fools think things are on sale) and buy some cheap. Wait for the next crash and sell for a quick 15 - 20%

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Is that indirect for faggots?

If so, TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE! ...aaaand WE'RE OFF! to hit the last glass of wine.

Damn, I knew I should have gone into City of Tokyo stock when it was offered 2 years ago.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I feel so guilty laughing about this.

[cacophony]

yeah well try having two babies during the first real economic crisis of the 21st century. every time i look at the news i want to go into the nursery and apologize to them.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Fear not Mom.

There just may be a conversation between the two that you cannot hear.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

YEAH!!!!!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3683270/


EVERYBODY!!! BEAT-OFF!!!!!

[bas_I_am]

been bouncing between DIG and DUG over the past 3 weeks and turned US$2000 into $4000

DUG will be back to 56 in the next 3 days.

[bas_I_am]

DUG will be back to 56 in the next 3 days.

I am backing way from this. better to pick up DIG on any pull back over the next 2 weeks

[Strangelet]

been bouncing between DIG and DUG over the past 3 weeks and turned US$2000 into $4000

DUG will be back to 56 in the next 3 days.


yeah well I just saved a shit load of money on my car insurance by switching to geico

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

bas_I_am!!!! I need your help.


"If you're not fearful, you're crazy."

JAMIE DIMON, JPMorgan Chase's chief executive, on the fear factor among credit card lending(time.com)


What does that mean? The "fear factor among credit card lending" bit. I googled it and cannot find s. on it.

[bas_I_am]

What does that mean? The "fear factor among credit card lending" bit. I googled it and cannot find s. on it. google (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22If+you%27re+not+fearful%2C+you%27re+cr azy.%22+Dimon+%22%22fear+factor+%22) led me to this (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/29/business/29credit.html)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

My hero.

thanks.

[bas_I_am]

I am backing way from this. better to pick up DIG on any pull back over the next 2 weeks
Ok. . . out of DIG (http://www.proshares.com/funds/dig.html?Current%20Quote%20and%20Chart) (up 30% in three days)
going FXP (http://www.proshares.com/funds/fxp.html?Current%20Quote%20and%20Chart) as the hang seng had a 30% up swing within the last three days. People will take some profits which means it will retrace at least 10-15% of current level. That means a quick 20%-30% with this 2x Short etf.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

And the 56?

[BeautifulBurnout]

RBS "making monkeys out of the government". (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/01/royal-bank-scotland-vincent-cable)

:mad:

Vince Cable for PM, I say. He is the only person out there who seems have a clue about the economy.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

been bouncing between DIG and DUG over the past 3 weeks and turned US$2000 into $4000

DUG will be back to 56 in the next 3 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dig_Dug

Video games always gets these boys attention. Maybe this will work.

And, really b-bas, I get it when many become angry that the same many didn't listen to what one(of many) really, real, for real right persons were saying.

What can you do? I make banana smoothies with a slight hint of liquor. CHEERS!!!

Has Rog passed out yet?

Oh, and finally, I'm just giving a bit of tough love to one of the sharpest tools in the box: bas_I_am.

[bas_I_am]

Ahhh, roddie this is the 56 you were talking about:
been bouncing between DIG and DUG over the past 3 weeks and turned US$2000 into $4000

DUG will be back to 56 in the next 3 days.
You missed this:
I am backing way from this. better to pick up DIG on any pull back over the next 2 weeks
that would have made you about 20% over last week.

its pulled back from a high of 38+ on tuesday so if you think this is a bottom, pick it up

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Ahhh, roddie this is the 56 you were talking about:

You missed this:

that would have made you about 20% over last week.

its pulled back from a high of 38+ on tuesday so if you think this is a bottom, pick it up


Nowhere near. I might be wrong.

I'll have more ideas(slightly borrowed) of how to get through the bottom when it/if happens.

[bas_I_am]

Nowhere near. I might be wrong.

I'll have more ideas(slightly borrowed) of how to get through the bottom when it/if happens.

ok jr. . .

time to buy dug

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

The irony that now everyone's bending over, no?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27582079/

Thanks b-bas!

[bas_I_am]

ok jr. . .

time to buy dug

god this is too fucking easy!
http://www.darktrain.org/dirty/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=195&d=1226504982
hope you bought when I told you

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

god this is too fucking easy!
http://www.darktrain.org/dirty/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=195&d=1226504982
hope you bought when I told you


Can you find a way to save Best Buy?

[bas_I_am]

Can you find a way to save Best Buy?
Why???

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I'm just wise-cracking, I think they're doing good too.

That other one seems to be out.

[bas_I_am]

I'm just wise-cracking, I think they're doing good too.

That other one seems to be out.
Actually I was wondering why they should be saved. . . .


Time to sell dug. . . .
switching to dig (cur. price 28.10)

play along and make some money!!!

<sing>party at ground zero!</sing>

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Actually I was wondering why they should be saved. . . .


Time to sell dug. . . .
switching to dig (cur. price 28.10)

play along and make some money!!!

<sing>party at ground zero!</sing>


How many pumps*?




*Please refer to Dig Dug link.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I got some more shit talk!

Have you noticed when the money market is going good i.e. for the 10th straight month stocks have soared, for 5th straight year home sales have skyrocketed, etc.

Then, on the downturn, when things are falling apart it becomes: for the 5th consecutive year, for the past 4th consecutive month.


But that's just me. It's kinda funny.

[bas_I_am]

Once again. . . .

EASY FUCKING MONEY!!!!

http://www.darktrain.org/dirty/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=196&d=1226610264

[bas_I_am]

If you put 1000 into dug the morning of 11/10.
Sold when I said and put it directly in dig. . .

it would be worth 1700 right now
70% in four days

DONT BUY EITHER RIGHT NOW!!!

starting monday morning: lather, rinse, repeat

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Or have you believe they saw it coming.

No wait! They didn't see it coming because there was too much coming.

I just confused myself.

*********

OH MAN, I THOUGHT i WAS IN THE "CRUNCH" THREAD. oooops. See?: http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/14/news/economy/retail_sales/index.htm

And there's more Around the World In A Day action: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27715270/

*********

I'm more than certain the Modershakers will not listen, they never do, to move this to the "Crunch" Thread. The first 3 lines just sound soooo wrong in this thread.




It just keeps getting better and better.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/13/money.transit.agencies/index.html

No wonder they're still partying like it's 1999(Hey?)

Better be ready to buy car??? I just don't know, yet.


********

And on a happier note: Beginning today, women are now allowed to ride the bus in Jerusalem!

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/168941

Too cavalier? ha, ha............ha.

What if, what if, no, no, what if they cleaned up their mess with past bonuses being retro-active. Or something.

It'd be an act of saving their souls. (wink that MFs)

[bas_I_am]

ok sold dig premarket. got 29.7. may go higher today but could go lower.

wait to see which direction things go. buy dig if it drops 5pct, buy dug if it drops 5pct. do nothing if flat

[bas_I_am]

ok. . . if your are playing along. put a buy order in for DUG @ 35

[bas_I_am]

ok, couldnt get DUG for 35. but don't buy DIG on this dip.

buy UYG (http://finance.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1227139178877&chddm=12712&q=NYSE:UYG&ntsp=0) right now for 4.67 after hours. it will hit 6

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1861332-3,00.html


aaaahhahaabbblahaah, IIIII'm gonna go with option IV!

[stimpee]

On the positive side, it looks like all the Dutch savers are going to get their Icesave money before Christmas!

http://tinyurl.com/55c9x8

[Rog]

first of many of this type of case now that everything's gone 'tit's up'????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7784925.stm


I still think i'm right....................

...and death to the hedge fund!!

[Deckard]

first of many of this type of case now that everything's gone 'tit's up'????

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7784925.stm


I still think i'm right....................

...and death to the hedge fund!!
What great timing too, this emerging in the midst of the biggest downturn of recent times.

[Deckard]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2ytv5sg.gif

"The Bank of England has cut interest rates to 1.5%, the lowest level in its 315-year history"

Why do I get the feeling lowering the rates like this is like pushing down tighter and tighter on a spring?

All we need now is a big war.

http://i40.tinypic.com/10fani8.jpg

[Deckard]

The Crisis of Credit Visualized (http://vimeo.com/3261363)

If you have 10 mins to spare, that is a lovely animation explaining the credit crunch.

(by an LA-based designer called Jonathan Jarvis (http://jonnyj.net/m5/))

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Have you seen the new dance craze spreading all across the nation???

It's called the Brad Pit!!! EVERYONE'S DOIN' IT!!!!

You can see it hear:

ISBN 0-7806-4689-4, Chapter 15/38 @ 44.44..


WHHHHHOOOOOOPPPPPPLLLLLISSSHHHHHHHH!

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

ummmmm. http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/02/25/jai-no/


I'd like to know, in detail, the change of heart on this stimulus package for the Republican side. Everyone was so ready for it 4-5 months ago, now it's a complete 180. Por why?

[Deckard]

Because 4-5 months ago there was still a slither of a chance that they might be the ones you had to sort this shit out.

Now they can revert to being contrarians towing the line "government involvement is bad, mmkay?", like the embarrassment that is
Bobby Jindal.

If the economy recovers, no-one will be too bothered that Republicans refused to back the bill, and they'll be able to hide behind the possibility that the recovery occurred 'despite' the Bill rather than because of it (and that they might still have achieved the same result without pouring so much public money into it).

If the economy tanks, which is still a very real possibility - the Republicans will be there shouting "Told you so".

It's a technique that's worked well in the UK for decades whenever there's a polarising issue, the prognosis of which involves a large amount of uncertainty. If you're in opposition, you attack - you may not necessarily win, but you usually can't lose by doing that.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I'd like to say, "Thank God for track records...," buuuuuut most of those now opposed most likely will not be around for very long, huh?

AND I don't hate old people either. :D (with a really long smile)

[Deckard]

So today we have a cut to 0.5% rates, and the first stab at "quantitative easing" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7924506.stm)

Something very euphemistic-sounding about that.

And that worries me.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Tell me more! Tell me more! Like, does he have car?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism

Funny, no?

[Juanita Rodriguez]

Did you do the Brad Pit last night!!!~?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090315/ap_on_bi_ge/aig_bonuses

I didn't, but I got some new crunking music! Kind sounds like shite though. The first 45 min. of DJ Koze RA 145 is great though.

[Juanita Rodriguez]

Did you do the Brad Pit last night!!!~?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090315/ap_on_bi_ge/aig_bonuses

I didn't, but I got some new crunking music! Kind sounds like shite though. The first 45 min. of DJ Koze RA 145 is great though.

GOOD NEWS!

It's not going to be a G-B (like, Grand Bonus) after all:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1885308,00.html

[Juanita Rodriguez]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29714426/

Don't look at me.

It should be stressed, Mr. Obama did everything legally & fessibly possible to be sure these bonuses were in the least amount possible. Happy now?

Doesn't change how the screwed feel. Nice touch giving U.S. a list of names though. ;)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

New era of retention rewards re-defined:

[underline/begin]Just Leave Re-Awards[underline/end] - No bonus, now go away so we can hire people who know WTF they're doing. :) (with open smile & big, smart ass, buggy eyes & then a wink)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Look at this shit!: http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2009/04/02/banks-told-they-can-ignore-the-market-the-market-rejoices-huh/

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

ok.ok.ok.ok.k.k.k.k.k.

This is how you do it. Grab a cheek in each hand, and spreeeeeead open.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1891748,00.html

I'm just blowing smoke ya'll. :rollseyes:


O.K. wait, not like that stupid ass. Like this: http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/screamer.jpg

[BeautifulBurnout]

I have just started reading The Storm by Vince Cable - who, imo, is the only British politician/economist/talking head who has a clue about what to do about the Crunch - and in his intro he quotes Marx:

"Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and mechanical products, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism."

Dunno about anyone else, but that gave me the shivers a bit, considering it was written over a century and a half ago... :eek:

[Deckard]

"...which will eventually lead to communism"

I was with him right up to that bit!

But chilling in its prescience nonetheless.

[Dunwho]

I have just started reading The Storm by Vince Cable - who, imo, is the only British politician/economist/talking head who has a clue about what to do about the Crunch - and in his intro he quotes Marx:



Dunno about anyone else, but that gave me the shivers a bit, considering it was written over a century and a half ago... :eek:

I have the opinion that we are essentially bound to a sort of pendulum effect when it comes to the dominance of left-ist or right-ist thinking.

Essentially as we see that Marx pointed out faults in the capitalist system, leading to communism... there are in turn faults in communism, such as the need for constant revolution to maintain a functioning system and keep people working, which, without ethnic cleansing and a volitile foreign policy is extremely hard to maintain...this as we are seeing in China leads to a Capitalisation of communism in effect and the communist values and ethos is gradually lost to a capitalist (perhaps greedy) mindset, and once the head of the communist state is eventually removed and an acceptance of Capitalism established (Russia - although that is highly debatable buts its the closest example i got) the state has swung back towards Capitalism....

Essentially both systems are fundementally flawed in many ways... Pure Capitalism is essentially bound to an ideal of profit at all costs.. less about the people and more about the gain. Thus as we see happening now the People have to take the hit for a problem which is completely out of the control of the common person... the person is a number and a statistic - the answer? more social representation - Ill have a little bit of socialist thinking thank you very much...and before you know it the pendulum is swinging back to the left!

The only problem being that the communist ideal - while valuing the people, accounting for everyone, and providing a purpose for everyone - the system is impossible to maintain without constant expansion or a need to produce... thus the big losers are once again the people, who feel the iron fist of a Totalitarian state, the surplus in "the flock" are culled and only the stongest survive either through ethnic cleansing or through war... which is imposible to maintain and ultimately accepting a need to impose some capitalist measures... and once you have a nibble of the profit cookie, you wanna eat the whole thing!

So essentially what im saying is that while Marx is right, and was spot on when the communist party grew hugely in Europe and elsewhere before and after the wars...(only really stoped in France anyway by the requirements of Marshall Aid that all countries must not have a Communist government to recieve the aid).... there is no real happy medium, and while now there may be a big socialist push.. unless a Utopia is found and the pendulum miraculously stops in the middle.. we are going to be forever pulled from one to the other...


thus its nothing to worry about


Phew...sorry... dont know why i needed to do that... ignore the poor definitions, i am simply thinking out loud

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Phew...sorry... dont know why i needed to do that... ignore the poor definitions, i am simply thinking out loud


Well, I like it when you think out loud. Gets me kinda Babe-like, you're so dreeeamy. :rollseyes: :D

Seriously though, some people need readings like this.


As far as reports on unemployment figures, I see patterns of a 10 - 11% unemployment rate by years end. Maybe even a number that hits close to home, but it has nothing to with me.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30638290/

Let's hope bryant3 gets through his math courses sooner.

[Strangelet]

reminds me of the "great ascending spiral" hawthorne had his madman describe in the house of the seven gables.

we return to where we used to be but on a higher plane, progress always as certain as the return to the past.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

CMM (no pun intended)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/22/news/companies/zombie_banks/index.htm?cnn=yes

Yeah, I've heard out the auto repo lists. Scary.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Here we Mother Fucking go: http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/03/news/economy/metropolitan_area_unemployment/index.htm?postversion=2009060316


Make weed legal, I need a damn joint.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Heads up kids!

Considering the adults have their heads(touchy subject that even the word touchy is a touchy subject, yet it seems to be much heard about, but ya know, it's a touchy subject) in the sand.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/05/retirement/next_crisis_americas_debt.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009060914

Opposing Left/Right agree on something!!! Scary.

[adery]

So, this is a new problem - so far Mobipocket files both DRM and not-DRM on my iLiad have been working just fine. But, today I opened a Mobipocket file Ive been reading, and it opened on the first page, and not on the last page read. Ive tried it a few more times, and this happened everytime.I was wondering if anybody had the same problem, and if so, how it was solved?p.s. This mobipocket file was created from pdf file in Mobipocket Desktop Reader.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Not that I coined the phrase or anything, but I have been harping on about it for years.


Ya reaps what ya sow(& there are many grey area in which this term falls well ahead in the future):

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1908494,00.html


"Or the laaaand of the freeeeeee(*)"

*new remix in the works to have additional lyrics of "to swindle anyone, anyway, anyhow & with an additional feeeeee". Or something like that.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

WOW!

Look at this shit man: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1909344,00.html

Selling IOU's on Ebay!

Maaaan, God Bless America.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/

Man, shit's bouncing all over the place. I mean the numbers...well, no(high pitch), pretty much everything else too.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Ya knooow, I'd like to do a little expirement ...

First, I need a crackhead. As well as two hits of crack (I'll pay for it, but don't know where to buy even though, I'm told, it's everywhere...whatever some else do that part)

Then, I'll need an ant farm.

Then, the crackhead gets one hit and second gets blown into the ant farm.

Then, let's see what happens. I BET(like, a beer or something) it looks about the same.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32173475/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/


30% feel Fed's doing "excellant/good job". Now do the math of the percentage who recieved bonus bailout for the mess. Viola!

This is such total BS.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

...and survival of the richest....begins.....now...

(7.28.09 6 AM EST)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

At least someone is:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32235657/ns/world_news-americas/

That "i" word. Again.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32260411/ns/politics-white_house/


I'm sorry, I was being insenstive. :rolleyes: :D ! (I rock)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

At this rate, 69/7*12 = 118.285 by years end :eek: :

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1914173,00.html


uh-oh.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

What choo talkin' 'bout Mr. G?:

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1914710,00.html

It's about time someone curses those bitches out. Like, with words.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

FEAR NOT!: http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1916073,00.html

(gasp): http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/13/real_estate/july_foreclosures/index.htm

Everything is All Right*!


* ESP. if you lied.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

eeeewwww, why would anyone brag about that?: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32403914


He must be really big. Or something.

Also, I'm so totally gonna buy this shit. :D I mean, you think gay people get freaky in the bedroom? We got nothing on old men with money. Mark my words...

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Seeee? I can be wrong about some things. :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32760414

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

NO WAY! NUH-UH, NEVER, i DON'T BELIEVE IT:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/22/madoff.lawsuit/index.html



What a freaking joke this continues to be.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

uggghh, ummm, uggghhh: http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2009/10/26/the-semi-return-of-the-gold-standard/

Y---y--Ya---YAY!!!! :confused:

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Ya know, I'm really beginning to hate being right most the time:

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1935924,00.html

[bas_I_am]

I don't know, john. . . Unemployment figures can be misleading. It may be that, out of those who desire a job, 10% may be jobless. But if those 10% are only qualified to be scullions and ditch diggers, then the figure is quite misleading.

There are plenty of jobs out there, I need 20 people right now. Pay is US$100K+ per annum. Just left a firm that had a similar need.

I know of at least 4 other firms in the same boat.

WE CAN'T FIND ANYONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO PROGRAM A COMPUTER!

Oh we get lots of those who make web pages. can run a content management server. can execute a database query.

So, if you are looking for a job, can program C# .NET or J2EE (no degree required). Want to make killer money and don't think you know everything, PM me.

US Citizenship required
Location: Washington DC Metro Area
Telecommuting may be considered

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I'll agree with you on one bit,

I don't know, john. . . Unemployment figures can be misleading . . . the figure is quite misleading.



and that can swing both ways.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

As if we need any new porn: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34093776/ns/business-us_business/

Sex amoungst fellow work associates is bad for business. Just kidding, it's NOTHING like that at all either, I'm just talking madman trash that doesn't mean anything until later . . .

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Oh, and this is just a liiiiiittle bit too crazy: http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/22/greene.hunger.backpacks/index.html