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Deckard
07-20-2008, 06:28 AM
"This trip is not at all a political trip or a rally of any sort," said Obama aide Robert Gibbs. "It is a series of substantive meetings with our friends and our allies to talk about the challenges we face and the national security demands for the 21st century."


Substantive meetings.... not at all a political trip.....

Does anyone really believe that?

:rolleyes:

When you cut through the crap, isn't this really - first and foremost - about being seen to be abroad?

About photo ops, about stockpiling anecdotes that can be used in upcoming debates ("Well, y'know.... I have seen for myself first hand....")

And of course resetting to zero that pesky "days since" counter on the GOP homepage.

I don't mean to be overly cynical or single out Obama as such. I just can't help feeling it's all dishonest pretending that, for instance, the substantive meetings or information-gathering represent the bulk of what this is about, or indeed couldn't happen without the trip.

This is so undeniably political, and has been so heavily trailed, I'll be surprised if it retains much of its intended political power.

Perhaps the outcome will swing it though.

I notice there's a big concern that the rapturous enthusiasm that's very likely to greet him around the world could actually put people off back home, in the sense that it may reinforce the Republican message that he's "not one of us".

Amazing.

His aides are apparently busy ensuring that as many photo ops as possible include signs emphasizing his "Americanness" to balance any such fears - flags, large statue of bald eagle, etc.

BeautifulBurnout
07-20-2008, 06:41 AM
It's bizarre (my word of the week).

It never ceases to amaze me - the propensity for politicians of every political colour to assume that we can't see through what they say and do.

I sometimes find myself wondering if that is because the vast majority of the population really are so dumb that they can't see through it, or just don't care enough to question any given political line. Or maybe it is just that, if they say something enough times, they think they will convince us?

People must have pretty much made up their minds who they are going to be voting for. It strikes me that those who are still undecided are likely to be the more intelligent rather than the less intelligent - people who really want to look at policies and ideologies of the candidates. And these are the people least likely to be bludgeoned by this kind of double-speak, imo.

Sean
07-20-2008, 09:22 AM
Yeah, it's hard to swallow the claim that this isn't be about the photo-ops and opportunity to beef up the perception of Obama's overseas "experience". Certainly he will engage in substantive meetings, but clearly this is primarily a political trip.

To be perfectly honest though, it's not like the campaign can just come right out and say that "yeah...this is mainly politically motivated". Not with the Republicans waiting to pounce on any tiny opportunity that presents itself. But then a better move might have been simply focusing on the trip itself, and not really speaking to the motivations for it too directly.

I sometimes find myself wondering if that is because the vast majority of the population really are so dumb that they can't see through it, or just don't care enough to question any given political line. Or maybe it is just that, if they say something enough times, they think they will convince us? Personally, I think it's because a large percentage of the population is so dumb that if he acknowledged something like this, the simplistic response would be one of horror that he would do something so brazen and that he's a phony. It would be far worse than the response he's getting from people like us right now. Basically, I don't think people like us tend to decide who to vote for based on the rhetoric framing a political trip, but a lot of others out there would.

dubman
07-20-2008, 12:06 PM
It's bizarre (my word of the week).

It never ceases to amaze me - the propensity for politicians of every political colour to assume that we can't see through what they say and do.

I sometimes find myself wondering if that is because the vast majority of the population really are so dumb that they can't see through it, or just don't care enough to question any given political line. Or maybe it is just that, if they say something enough times, they think they will convince us?

People must have pretty much made up their minds who they are going to be voting for. It strikes me that those who are still undecided are likely to be the more intelligent rather than the less intelligent - people who really want to look at policies and ideologies of the candidates. And these are the people least likely to be bludgeoned by this kind of double-speak, imo.

if they never, ever, ever, EVER cop to their cynical strategizing, then theres still an allowance somewhere that they might be saying what they're doing. yes, its transparent, but i kinda, sorta, oh-god-do-i-wanna believe that he might go there with the intent of assesing it thoughtfully and come back saying something new and workable.

i made up my mind by the time the cali primary rolled around, but, and this is weird, recently i just dont fucking know. it's... too good. i saw a t-shirt for sale using the obama type saying "prepare to be disappointed", the sidebar reading, the sooner we accept that he isnt jesus then we can see that even the most inspiring politician is still a politician."

which is a great response to my sudden reservation about him. maybe it's that one pandering gesture too many. maybe its how he says contradicting statements with ease to differeing crowds. maybe because he's getting comfortable. maybe its the realization that their whole "lets just get a decent guy in office you guys" vibe is just another angle that a couple managers hit on brilliantly...

i dunno....

BeautifulBurnout
07-20-2008, 01:37 PM
i made up my mind by the time the cali primary rolled around, but, and this is weird, recently i just dont fucking know. it's... too good. i saw a t-shirt for sale using the obama type saying "prepare to be disappointed", the sidebar reading, the sooner we accept that he isnt jesus then we can see that even the most inspiring politician is still a politician."



Yeah. I feel there is a danger in that he is being put on a pedestal as "Saviour of Mankind" in much the same way Blair was in 1997. That is not to say that people shouldn't vote him in for all that, because as far as I can tell from this side of the Pond, he is the new broom that really does need to sweep clean. But if people idolise him too much, they will be sorely disappointed when he turns out to be human after all.

Where things started to go wrong for Blair was when he stopped listening to public opinion and did what he wanted to do anyway. Because of his immense majority in the House of Commons, he could effectively do whatever he wanted with impunity. He started to betray the core values of the people that voted him in and moved further and further in the direction of Big Business and Control. Had he stayed on his manifesto message, I have no doubt he would still be in power today and still be a popular leader.

I kind of hope that Obama gets in, but by the skin of his teeth, so that there isn't an overwhelming majority in the Senate (or Congress). That would keep him sharp and focussed, instead of enabling him to believe his own publicity that he is the New Messiah for the US.

Sean
07-20-2008, 02:35 PM
As long as he's viewed realistically, then I doubt there'll be any big disappointments. Clearly there's a lot of excitement around Obama, but I've never personally heard any supporter of his say anything about viewing him as "Jesus", or perfect by any means. By that, I mean that for myself and all the people I know firsthand that support him, the general attitude is not one of idolatry - it's simply that Obama offers a net improvement for the country, while McCain, and until recently, Hillary offered a net decline. In McCain's case, because he wants to continue too many policies that have proven to be flawed, and in Hillary's case because she would've been crushed under the sea of controversy and drama that seems to perpetually surround the Clintons...largely of their own making.

So yeah, Obama's flawed, and he's said and done some things I don't like, but nothing I can say I've been surprised by. Certainly not enough to reverse my feeling that he'll be good for the country overall, while his opponents would be bad.

Or to put it another way, I'll be far more disappointed if he's not elected at all than I will be if he is elected and does a few things I don't like.

Deckard
07-20-2008, 02:43 PM
if they never, ever, ever, EVER cop to their cynical strategizing, then theres still an allowance somewhere that they might be saying what they're doing. yes, its transparent, but i kinda, sorta, oh-god-do-i-wanna believe that he might go there with the intent of assesing it thoughtfully and come back saying something new and workable.

i made up my mind by the time the cali primary rolled around, but, and this is weird, recently i just dont fucking know. it's... too good. i saw a t-shirt for sale using the obama type saying "prepare to be disappointed", the sidebar reading, the sooner we accept that he isnt jesus then we can see that even the most inspiring politician is still a politician."

which is a great response to my sudden reservation about him. maybe it's that one pandering gesture too many. maybe its how he says contradicting statements with ease to differeing crowds. maybe because he's getting comfortable. maybe its the realization that their whole "lets just get a decent guy in office you guys" vibe is just another angle that a couple managers hit on brilliantly...

i dunno....
I feel the same way (at least as far as I can, being an outsider in this). To some extent it'll be the natural cycle, the transition that takes place in a candidate when they move on from campaigning to the party -> campaigning to the country. But combine that with the reminder that, oh yeah, he IS still a politician, and in order to win, he IS going to have to compromise, dumb down, occasionally contradict, and pander - and I guess lots of his supporters will be feeling similar - and I think ultimately that's a useful thing.

Yeah. I feel there is a danger in that he is being put on a pedestal as "Saviour of Mankind" in much the same way Blair was in 1997.
The Messiah! God yeah. The memory of being a 23 year old voting for Blair for the first time with such enthusiasm in 1997, and the subsequent long and painful kick in the guts (admittedly after a relatively good 2 year honeymoon period) remains with me. Politicians have always gone stale, and with the advent of the internet, I can only see that happening a lot quicker than ever. But you're right - absolutely no reason not to vote for him now.

Deckard
07-20-2008, 02:47 PM
As long as he's viewed realistically, then I doubt there'll be any big disappointments.
Precisely. And funnily enough (or perhaps not), my impression is that it's always been supporters of his opponents who've had a vested interest in using terms like Messiah and Second Coming and Cult Leader in order to dismiss him. Or news correspondents looking for easy soundbites.

Sean
07-20-2008, 03:23 PM
Precisely. And funnily enough (or perhaps not), my impression is that it's always been supporters of his opponents who've had a vested interest in using terms like Messiah and Second Coming and Cult Leader in order to dismiss him. Or news correspondents looking for easy soundbites.Yeah, that's exactly the impression I've gotten, too. It's primarily been used as a way to be dismissive of people who think he seems like a solid candidate.

mmm skyscraper
07-20-2008, 09:02 PM
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=55D13D94-3048-5C12-00E851454E822F1E

Jesse Jackson, Jr. on Obama getting the nomination:

I cried all night. I’m going to be crying for the next four years,” he said. “What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history. ... The event itself is so extraordinary that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance.”

cacophony
07-20-2008, 09:03 PM
I notice there's a big concern that the rapturous enthusiasm that's very likely to greet him around the world could actually put people off back home, in the sense that it may reinforce the Republican message that he's "not one of us".

this is purely anecdotal and unscientific, but i live in a suburb of atlanta, georgia, and this area is one of the most hardcore conservative christian areas you'll ever run across. let me put it this way, this area was one of the absolute last areas of the country where GWB's approval rating dropped to the historic lows he's enjoyed in the last couple of years.

that said, i am seeing overwhelming (considering the area) overt support of the obama campaign. i see obama signs and bumper stickers all over the place. it's one of those things where if you didn't live here you might not notice any at all. but living here and knowing the political leanings of the region, it's almost shocking how much signage i've seen in favor of obama. and much of what i'm seeing is an increase since clinton dropped out of the primary so it doesn't appear to be simply holdover from an exciting and divisive primary season.

also notable is the absolute lack of ANY mccain signage. not a bumper sticker, lawn sign or t-shirt anywhere.

just a little personal observation from the scarily conservative south.

Sean
07-20-2008, 10:30 PM
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=55D13D94-3048-5C12-00E851454E822F1E

Jesse Jackson, Jr. on Obama getting the nomination:

I cried all night. I’m going to be crying for the next four years,” he said. “What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history. ... The event itself is so extraordinary that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance.”I'm just curious if this article was posted in response to the issue of people saying Obama supporters view him as a "Jesus"-like figure? If so, I'm not sure I would personally count it as such since it's more about the racial progress his nomination signifies. It seems less about Obama and more about the fact that people are elated that an African-American has been nominated whoever they may be.

Either way, it was an interesting link. Thanks for posting.

Sean
07-21-2008, 02:50 AM
So I found this interesting. First, it's reported that Iraq's Prime Minister has publicly stated that he supports and agrees with Obama's timetable for troop withdrawl. Then, he gets a call from Bush's people, and suddenly, the Prime Minister's office claims he was misquoted and didn't agree as strongly as reported.

But then, the New York Times gets it's hands on an audio recording of the Iraqi Prime Minister's comments, and provides these direct quotes:

"Obama's remarks that — if he takes office — in 16 months he would withdraw the forces, we think that this period could increase or decrease a little, but that it could be suitable to end the presence of the forces in Iraq."

and

"Who wants to exit in a quicker way has a better assessment of the situation in Iraq."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/21/america/21obama.php

So as long as people hear the direct quotes, I think I'd say that visit played in Obama's favor. But if all they hear is that the Prime Minister is backing off the comments, then I think it may not play in his favor.

Deckard
07-21-2008, 03:14 AM
this is purely anecdotal and unscientific, but i live in a suburb of atlanta, georgia, and this area is one of the most hardcore conservative christian areas you'll ever run across. let me put it this way, this area was one of the absolute last areas of the country where GWB's approval rating dropped to the historic lows he's enjoyed in the last couple of years.

that said, i am seeing overwhelming (considering the area) overt support of the obama campaign. i see obama signs and bumper stickers all over the place. it's one of those things where if you didn't live here you might not notice any at all. but living here and knowing the political leanings of the region, it's almost shocking how much signage i've seen in favor of obama. and much of what i'm seeing is an increase since clinton dropped out of the primary so it doesn't appear to be simply holdover from an exciting and divisive primary season.

also notable is the absolute lack of ANY mccain signage. not a bumper sticker, lawn sign or t-shirt anywhere.

just a little personal observation from the scarily conservative south.
Well I find that encouraging at least.

Deckard
07-21-2008, 03:17 AM
So I found this interesting. First, it's reported that Iraq's Prime Minister has publicly stated that he supports and agrees with Obama's timetable for troop withdrawl. Then, he gets a call from Bush's people, and suddenly, the Prime Minister's office claims he was misquoted and didn't agree as strongly as reported.
Didn't something else like this happen recently with the Iraqi prime minister? He said something, there was some outrage in Washington, and suddenly his position was retracted or at least greatly watered down, and people were saying the same thing - he'd obviously "received a call".

Can't remember what it was now...

//\/\/
07-21-2008, 07:35 AM
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=55D13D94-3048-5C12-00E851454E822F1E

Jesse Jackson, Jr. on Obama getting the nomination:

I cried all night. I’m going to be crying for the next four years,” he said. “What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation’s political history. ... The event itself is so extraordinary that another chapter could be added to the Bible to chronicle its significance.”


...and listening to his comments last week it sounds like jesse'd be first in the queue to crucify him!

(was there a big hoo-ha when mcain did the foreign statesman thing right after his nomination?)

Sean
07-21-2008, 02:00 PM
...and listening to his comments last week it sounds like jesse'd be first in the queue to crucify him!

(was there a big hoo-ha when mcain did the foreign statesman thing right after his nomination?)That statement about crying was actually Jesse Jackson Jr. - son of the Jesse Jackson that said he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off. JJ Junior is a Congressman and actually spoke out against his Dad immediately after the offending statements were released.

dubman
07-21-2008, 02:41 PM
i want to know what the hell he was thinking saying that within what was basically enemy territory. jesse jackson saying he wants to castrate obama within the fox news den. yeah that's not going to get picked up, all the mics are turned off everywhere :rolleyes:

the embarrassment of the whole thing is funnier than anything else. especially the advance retraction. "wide, deep, and uneqivocal... but his nuts are mine"

Sean
07-21-2008, 03:02 PM
And it looks like McCain's trying to steal back some of the Obama trip limelight with this (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=27630):

Sources close to Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign are suggesting he will reveal the name of his vice presidential selection this week while Sen. Barack Obama is getting the headlines on his foreign trip. The name of McCain's running mate has not been disclosed, but Mitt Romney has led the speculation recently.

dubman
07-21-2008, 03:16 PM
you know you have nothing to lose when the only way you can get attention is by telling everyone you're going to announce your running mate just to stave off the attention obamas getting for taking a meaningless trip.

cant wait to see what he does when obama announces his own running mate. probably have a public boxing match with uwe boll. i doubt romney is mccains VP though, he doesnt seem like the kind of guy whos content with being given a consolation prize by the winner. if he is then i guess it he just ate it, smiled, and is now planning for the 2012 elections.

since the news networks seemed unusually reticent to publish a full quote of what was said, i went digging a bit and stumbled on this (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=2160631).
jesse jackson conspiratorially whispering to the guy next to him about his plans for castration. that's some 'best week ever' shit.

Sean
07-23-2008, 12:09 PM
The Daily Show's coverage of Obama's trip, "Obama Quest" (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=177349&title=obama-quest-bethlehem). The opening titles for the segment alone makes it worth the watch...

cured
07-24-2008, 08:57 PM
I'm just hoping for August to go by quickly so we can turn our attention to the debates between Obama and McCain. Granted, there isn't a whole lot of anything that hasn't been scripted and rehearsed but I enjoy the punching and counter-punching. If only Bush had to stand up against Obama, I'd really enjoy that bloodbath, but as it is I think Obama will effectively slay McCain once the debates have concluded.

Sarcasmo
07-25-2008, 08:10 AM
What I'm wondering is who the hell is John McCain surrounding himself with? It seems, not too long ago, that McCain was the maverick of the Republican party, shaking hands and rubbing shoulders with liberals and idealists, bucking the system, and making a distinguished nuisance of himself. NOW, once he gets the nomination, he's deciding to play it safe? He's where he is because people believed that he was different and dangerous and possessed of the rare pride that forces people to do what is right even though it might be politically harmful. Like Sean, I really used to respect the guy, and now I really just don't know.

chuck
07-25-2008, 03:46 PM
Off-topic I know - but I did enjoy the Daily Show's commentary about this next 6 months being the low point of American democracy (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=177351&title=congressional-hearings&to=3).

That is quite a list of douchebags. Talk about coated in teflon.

//\/\/
07-25-2008, 04:54 PM
(funny how he's swerved big photo-calls with gordon brown!)

TheBang
07-25-2008, 04:59 PM
I find it incredible how seemingly impotent Congress has been against Executive excesses, even when the Dems have the majority. They should subpoena these guys, and arrest them if they refuse to appear or testify. No one is above the law, and this Executive privilege is bullshit.

chuck
07-25-2008, 06:50 PM
Well, it's not quite a congressional enquiry - but Condi Rice is visiting us here in NZ - to hang out with our Foreign Affairs muppet - who's embroiled in a small donations scandal at present (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10523610) - and one of the university associations offered up a reward to anyone who was able to make a successful citizen's arrest on Ms Rice (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10523364).

:)

Not much point really - and the police put the kibosh on it (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10523473) - but good on them for trying.