Talk rugby

[chuck]

machin!

Talk rugby! Talk about it as much as you can. I'm living in NZ - so it's one of the things we talk about a touch too much.

We're all a little worried down here that most all of our current All Blacks are going to be playing in the Northern Hemisphere club competitions by the end of the year - and we'll have no-one left to play test rugby.

Players are only eligible for selection for the All Blacks, if they play their rugby in NZ.

Currently Dan Carter and Nick Evans are both off contract at the end of 2008 - and they're more than likely to be heading off to Europe. The lure of the Euro and the pound are huge - and the amount of money that the clubs are throwing around are insane. No chance of keeping players in NZ - as we don't have the economy to support them.

Here's a list of players currently playing in Europe - who could potentially be All Blacks if they were playing in NZ.

Clarke Dermody (London Irish), Anton Oliver (Toulon), Carl Hayman (Newcastle), Chris Jack (Saracens), Paul Tito (Cardiff Blues), Andrew Blowers (Bristol), Marty Holah (Ospreys), Rush (Blues), Justin Marshall(c) (Ospreys), Glen Jackson (Saracens), Doug Howlett (Munster), Ricki Flutey (Wasps), Luke McAlister (Sale are playing him at 13), Rico Gear (Worcester), Walker (Gloucester).

Reserves: Sam McDonell (Newcastle), Scott Linklater (Bristol), Sorenson (Newcastle), Tiatia (Ospreys), Byron Kelleher (Toulouse), Aaron Mauger (Leicester), Regan King (Scarlets)

Then you've got players like Andrew Mehrtens, Carlos Spencer, Sam Tuitopo, Bruce Reihana, Kees Meeuws, Craig Dowd still plying their trade over there.

All rugby players in NZ are centrally contracted to the NZRFU. No private sponsorship or ownership of club or franchises. Those clubs listed above have big pocket owners - with a lot of cash.

Upshot of all this is basically - England - if they send a strong side down, will have a chance of beating the ABs in June.

[Rog]

well they need to scrap the dopey " not playing in NZ rule" then, a bit like the old " can't play for yorkshire cc unless you were born in the county "thing from back in the 70's;)

[chuck]

You could argue that Roger - but then I fear rugby will go the way of football - that is to say, the only games that have value are the qualifying ones for tournaments - and the tournaments themselves.

Football's system of having "friendlies" seems to me a pointless exercise.

One of the great things about rugby at an international level - has been that every test, every meeting has meaning. The superb rivalry between the Springboks and the All Blacks - the heritage that was and might become Welsh rugby again - that wasn't based on playing 'friendlies'.

I fear rugby union at an international level - would go the way of rugby league if we relaxed the residency rules - and international rugby league is a joke. If we relax the residency rule - then international rugby would be bound by the clubs and the individual owners - test rugby as we know it would be rendered impotent.

In my opinion at any rate.

In football it's different - club is greater than country - but I don't know if rugby should be the same. To me - and yes, I'm biased - the All Blacks and wearing the silver fern are the pinnacle of what it is to be a rugby player.

[matt]

Living in Wales (which I think is the only country along with NZ where rugby is the national sport) me & my mates talk rugby all the time. It's just a way of life down here. Only this week we've excitedly booked out hotel for the first Friday night 6N game in Paris next year and are hoping to have as good a time as we did in Dublin this year.

Obviously what with being European Champions and everything at the moment it's not a bad time to be a Welsh fan. And whilst Wales have been here before and then imploded (2005 anyone) I'm hoping this time that with Gatland & Edwards at the helm we'll see a bit of continued success for a change. The big test now is to perform against the SH big 3 and that starts in about 5 weeks with 2 Tests against the World Champions in their own backyard. I think it's going to be a really big ask for Wales to win one of those Tests, especially as we've had a couple of big injury blows lately losing Mike Phillips and Gavin Henson who are two of our more abrasive, physical backs which we really could have done with against the Boks. Have to wait and see I guess.

And as chuck said, there's not really such a thing as an International friendly in rugby (other perhaps than when one of the top 8 sides play a weaker side, like Scotland or someone ;) ) And I don't have a club side in Rugby, I just support Wales. Admittedly that's because the team I did support (Bridgend) who became the Celtic Warriors when regional rugby started here were shat on by the WRU but there you go. I always want the Welsh regions to do well against non Welsh opposition but its really Wales that gets all my main support.

Like NZ, Wales from next season have also imposed a 'if you don't play in Wales you can't play for your country rule' (with the exception of players already plying their trade outside of the fair country) which is a brave step by Gatland, especially given the amount of foreign imports at regional level. And it will certainly be interesting to see how the ABs fare without all those stars for the next year or two before they return for the next World Cup.

And as an aside, chuck, what's your take on the ELVs? They've just implemented them globally (for a 12 month trial basis) from 1 August and most people seem to be against them over here. It seems to be a classic case of North v South with us moaning about how the Aussies just want to turn the game into Rugby League. Plus, although being Welsh and obviously enjoying scintillating back play, there is something great to watch about 140 odd stone of rolling maul driving forward.

The trial is also i think going to give the SH teams a slight advantage in the Autumn Internationals over here as all the S14 players will have already had a full season under the new rules whereas the NH teams will be playing them for the first time at Test Level...

[chuck]

Matt,

Well - another quality Kiwi player heading north. Nick Evans confirms signing (http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/rugby/news/article/-/3071102/departing-evans-seek-early-release) for Harlequins. And apparently it's for the lifestyle.

Which is fair enough - boys in their early 20's - getting paid shitloads of cash to play rugby in a big country - travel Europe - not have any pressure about being in the AB's - jaunts and jolly japes really.

Fair play.

But it really is fucking up international rugby - and getting to the state where domestic rugby in NZ is so bereft of quality players that no-one goes to watch it.

And as an aside, chuck, what's your take on the ELVs? They've just implemented them globally (for a 12 month trial basis) from 1 August and most people seem to be against them over here. It seems to be a classic case of North v South with us moaning about how the Aussies just want to turn the game into Rugby League. Plus, although being Welsh and obviously enjoying scintillating back play, there is something great to watch about 140 odd stone of rolling maul driving forward.

The ELV's that have been trialled in this year's S14 - have imho made the game far more enjoyable to watch - faster, and with more ball in play. There's still been plenty of mauling and hard yards by the fatboys - but it's been great to see teams that know how to use the variations - really do well. As in - the Crusaders mainly.

The NH vs SH line is bullshit - the IRB put these ELV's together - and support for them as come from the NH unions - it has to have - as the Oz/NZ and SA unions don't have enough votes to get them passed.

It's a media beatup about the ELV's turning union into league - you can still use the scrum as a weapon - and you still need a powerful forward pack to control and set up the ball for your backs.

I'm surprised at the blanket introduction of the ELV's for next season though - there are more than have been played in the S14 this year. Definitely don't understand why they've allowed the maul to be pulled down - that is asking for injuries - and means you'll have more fatboys with tits for hands standing around in the backline!

Rather than me rehash it - have a read through this forum thread (http://www.daimenhutchison.com/silverfern/smf/index.php/topic,29763.0.html). Bloody quality rugby forum that as well Matt - feel free to join in. Mainly Kiwis and Ockers - but some dirty Saffas, a few Poms, Taffs, and Irish. It's all good.

[chuck]

For me Rugby is a southwest of France (part of the )culture . But our club here in Paris is a strong one . (with a stupid name)Which Parisian squad is it that turns out in pink jerseys? Toulon is doing well - should win promotion to the Div 1 next year - but Tana Umaga has gotten into a bit of trouble. He does have a team of all-star ex-internationals though - crazy money being spent there!


You can't keep your players at home if you don't have enough clubs, money and challenge. Because now these is a pro game not anymore an amateur one . ( i am not old enough to know what it was like when rugby was more or less amateur) ( we have the same trouble with football , all our good ones are playing outside)
We have players from Argentina and they said it helps and helped improve rugby level in this country . One of the cited reasons for a lot of the younger players leaving to play in the UK is because they got bored of the routine and the schedule of games here in NZ/Oz/SA - and so they are keen to try playing in another country - which has different tournaments. The HEC, the Premiership, the French divisions, even Japan's league - all offer different styles of play and challenge to these young guys.

Argentinian rugby is a little like South American football - all the quality players work in Europe - because that is where the money is. At an international level they struggle because they don't get a lot of tests - unlike the big three in the SH - Oz, SA and NZ. It would be a logistical nightmare to include them in the current Tri-Nations tournament - purely because of flying times - it's already a 12+ hour flight between SA and NZ - Auckland to Santiago direct is 16 hours!

well i don't know : if your rule of "no play in no play for " doesn't work maybe you may try to focus on young very young player . ( from NZ and Pacific )

Oh - don't worry - we're doing that. The great thing about NZ rugby is there are many players coming through the ranks - and it's about training and using them as best we can.

Here's a name for you to keep an eye out for - huge potential - and being mentioned as the next Lomu. Loose forward who could play on the wing, and a movie star name to match: Victor Vito


of course i've got the solution it's a communist one ! let's have almost the same payment for every kind of player ( i said kind not for every one of them). At the moment that is what happens here in NZ - players sign a contract with the NZRFU - then depending on what level of rugby they play - they get paid a set fee - plus game bonuses and such - so there's a base level salary for being a S14 player, then a Junior All Black, Maori, Sevens, All Black.

Not sure of the exact levels - but it's a pretty standard contract. Individuals can negotiate commercial deals - as long as they don't go against NZRFU contracts. So Adidas are the major sponsor of the NZRFU - you can't go off and get a local contract with Nike.


ok it won't work , well let's do a fair 'transfer' , i will take a NZ for a french one ! One of the big issues is there are no transfer fees - when a player leaves NZ, they get the cash - neither the NZRFU or their club get any money for developing, training, supporting them through the years. And a number of players have basically been released from their contracts on personal reasons - basically because they don't want to play in NZ anymore. (ie. they're getting more cash overseas)

NH clubs take SH players - and no money goes back to the SH unions for developing those players. The real danger will come when NH clubs start signing 17-18 year old rugby players - before they even get into our development systems here. Then NZ rugby will struggle to compete.

as you can see i can't talk your way . But Rugby is a special game.You certainly do speak our way - and you speak true - rugby is a special game. The game they play in heaven, as they say. :)

[essbee]

No mention of the Heineken Cup - any thoughts?

Thought it was a good old-fashioned grunt fest myself but I may be biased ;)

[chuck]

Downloading the torrent as I type - looking forward to watching it. We like grunt fests down here in NZ too - our forward packs are usually pretty good - they just also happen to be pretty fast and in the last 5 years have stepped up on the ball skills as well.

I'm interested to see how well Munster use Doug Howlett.

In other news - Jerry Collins retired today. Well - no-one's really sure what he's done. He's not signed for a UK or Japanese or French club - he's just decided to stop playing rugby for a while.

Colin Charvis will be pleased. ;)

Top bloke Jerry - hard bastard - but left his guts on the field - and played like a man possessed at times. He's been pretty quiet this year for the Hurricanes - I don't think his heart has really been in the game since the World Cup.

[chuck]

Just thought I'd throw this thought into the mix - for the odd English and Irish fan of rugby - who might (should) fancy your chances against the All Blacks this year.

This is the list of names from the June 2007 test series.

4 props (Hayman, Schwalger, Tialata, Woodcock)
3 hookers (Hore, Mealamu, Oliver)
3 locks (Jack, Robinson, Williams)
1 lock/loosie (Flavell)
2 blindsides (Collins, Thorne)
1 opensides (McCaw)
1 no8 (So'oialo)
1 utility loose forward (Masoe)
3 halfbacks (Kelleher, Leonard, Weepu)
2 first fives (Carter, Evans)
2 second fives (McAlister, Mauger)
2 centres (Smith, Toeava)
3 wings (Howlett, Rokocoko, Sivivatu)
2 fullbacks (MacDonald, Muliana)

The players in bold are no longer playing in New Zealand.

The players in bold and italics have not been selected on form - or, as in the case of Evans, Flavell, and Thorne (imo) because they are off to the UK or Japan in the next few months.

Rokocoko is injured - but should be back for the 3N.

That's a starting 15 in total.

All Black fans better hope the legendary depth of NZ rugby does actually exist!

[chuck]

All Black Training Squad for test matches against Ireland and England.

All Blacks squad

Backs: Leon MacDonald (Canterbury), Mils Muliaina (Waikato), Rudi Wulf (North Harbour), Sitiveni Sivivatu (Waikato), Anthony Tuitavake (North Harbour), Conrad Smith (Wellington), Richard Kahui (Waikato), Ma'a Nonu (Wellington), Stephen Donald (Waikato), Daniel Carter (Canterbury), Andy Ellis (Canterbury), Brendon Leonard (Waikato).

Forwards: Rodney So'oialo (Wellington), Sione Lauaki (Waikato), Richie McCaw (Canterbury, captain), Jerome Kaino (Auckland), Adam Thomson (Otago), Ali Williams (Tasman), Brad Thorn (Tasman), Anthony Boric (North Harbour), John Afoa (Auckland), Greg Somerville (Canterbury), Neemia Tialata (Wellington), Tony Woodcock (North Harbour), Keven Mealamu (Auckland), Andrew Hore (Taranaki).

Plenty of new faces in there - only 16 from last years World Cup squad.

Nice to see big Brad Thorn back in there - 33 years old - double rugby league and rugby union international - playing league for Australia. Rudi Wulf as well - he broke his neck playing rugby about 3 years ago - so superb for him to come back and fight his way back into the squad.

June 7th - first test against Ireland - will be there at the stadium with the mates!

[matt]

Can't see anything other than a hat trick for the SH countries this weekend.

From a welsh point of view, the injuries we've had have seriously undermined our strength, especially losing our top two scrum halves & first three choices at openside which means Jonathon Thomas, who usually plays at 6, is having to be a stand-in 7 this weekend.

And having to play Parker at inside center instead of Henson is also a huge blow. Haven't seen the boks team yet but I'm expecting them to win fairly comfortably, especially as we've had to play Cooper at 9 who can't even hold down a starting position for his club side and has been a shadow of the player he was since the injury he picked up on the last Lions tour :(

Think you'll have an enjoyable afternoon chuck as the Irish national side is in a right mess at the moment. It's only a shame Umaga isn't playing so he could once again put that perennial whinger Brian 'oi coulda doid' O'Driscoll in his place.

And let me tell you, we felt the huge sigh of relief Colin Charvis let out when he heard about Jerry Collins retiring around these parts. Except Collins will probably sign for a European club now and so could end up meeting Charvis in a domestic competition...

[chuck]

I dunno Matt - ABs are always a little rusty on their first hit-out of the season.

It's good to be nervous - the Irish have every chance, with the Munster pack, BOD and O'Gara doing their thing as well. Of course - Keven Mealamu might have to be careful when he tackles him. Kev's starting on the bench so BOD will last longer than the last time he was down here.

Have you seen this youtube link : Brian and Tana's Civil Union (http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Q4dtr9-QA4)

Not bad for a giggle.

Henry and co have kept the provincial pairs together at key positions - Williams and Thorn locking - Nonu and Smith in midfield. Bit of chat about having Rodney at no. 8 - but I'm sure he'll enjoy getting the tackles in.

Not sure what Jerry's going to do - he's got a child in Bath I think - so it's possible he'll take a contract up in England. He's not said anything though.

[chuck]

Woohoo - 4 hours till kickoff - getting excited. First test of the season - a new start after the QF to forget. (To go with the two previous semi-finals that didn't happen either!)

http://metservice.co.nz/default/index.php?alias=wellington

The weather is meant to be a shocker - so I've got the spray vest out - and the thermals will be on. The glow from the pre-match drinks will sort it all though.

Go Black!!

[chuck]

holy shit - that was the coldest I've been for a long time. The southerly rolled in about 6:45pm - the bite kicked in about 7pm and the rain was started just as we got to the stadium and continued right through.

Hard yards by the forward packs - I've nothing but respect for anyone that took the field tonight - the various journalists can go suck the proverbial big ones - that was insane weather and atrocious conditions for standing around in - let alone playing international level rugby.

No real quibbles with either side - that was intense football - played in absa-fucking-lutely the worst conditions I've ever seen - and both sides deserve a beer. Or three.

I was there in thermals, spray vest, ski jacket - and a half-dozen beers, and I was still frozen half to fucking hell and back.

Apathy about the state of rugby in NZ - get bent - 29,000 turned up to enjoy the same privilege of watching the ABs play the first game of the season. Pretty or not - that's what rugby is about.

[matt]

Good weekend of rugby.

Ireland miss an opportunity to beat the Wallabies in their own back yard, England get stuffed, Wales restore some pride and Scotland pull off the shock of the day by not only beating the Pumas but also managing to score two tries ;)

Only actually watched the English & Welsh games so can't really comment on the others. Although the scores in both games were extremely similar I'd have to say the English score flattered England and the Welsh score flattered the Boks. And I'm not one to usually moan about the ref but Kiwi Lydnon Bray had something of a shocker and certainly seemed to be favouring the home side. Some of the penalties he awarded to the Boks were baffling, he'd then play almost 5 minutes of advantage until the Boks dropped the ball then come back for the penalty. And a big turning point in the game was when Wales were winning with about 60 minutes left and under the Boks posts when he pinged Alun Wyn Jones for a knock on when there was clearly a South African hand in the ruck. And as for his positioning for the first Springbok try, :eek:

Think the better team won, but it would have certainly been closer with a different ref.

As for England not much to say except they were outclassed. Carter against Hodgson was a joke and I'd be very surprised if Charlie holds onto the No 10 shirt for this weeks rematch as his tackling was not so much shocking as non-existent. Think Barkley will probably get the nod although there's a case for Flood to start. Either way I can't see it making much difference to the outcome. (And just heard that Sheridan is out with an eye injury so that's also going to hurt England). One positive for England to take though is that Tom Rees had a pretty good game against the master McCaw

Anyway, looking forward to Saturday's game and hoping to see another master class from Carter & Co...

[chuck]

McAwe out for 6 weeks.

England produce another lesson in how not to play international rugby.

And how not to be a professional unit on tour - apart from David Strettle, who may have set himself up for a role as a professional shagger.

Like what I saw - and although not totally confident in us keeping the 3 Nations trophy - looking forward to the challenge. As long as we can get past the Wallabies and keep the Bledisloe - I'll be happy.