No morals... no entry!

[Deckard]

Another British undesirable tries his luck!

(From CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/books/03/21/author.deported.ap/index.html): )

British writer and self-styled dandy Sebastian Horsley was denied entry to the United States after arriving to promote his memoir of sex, drugs and flamboyant fashion.

Horsley said he was questioned for eight hours Tuesday by border officials at Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey before being denied entry on grounds of "moral turpitude."

The 45-year-old author was traveling to New York for the U.S. launch of "Dandy in the Underworld," his account of a life dedicated to sex, drugs and finely tailored clothes.

"I was dressed flamboyantly -- top hat, long velvet coat, gloves," Horsley said. "My one concession to American sensibilities was to remove my nail polish. I thought that would get me through."

:D

[BeautifulBurnout]

Newark LIBERTY International Airport - oh! the irony :D

[Sean]

What a freakin' embarassment. Sorry everyone. :o

[BeautifulBurnout]

What a freakin' embarassment. Sorry everyone. :o

And so you should be! We blame you personally, Sean! ;)

[dubman]

what.
moral what.
what
the fuck is this place, a boarding school? what kind of paperwork do you have for that? moral turpitude? turpitude. we have child-raping tourists adjusting their ties and coming back from highly suspect places and we dont let oscar powers come in here because an agent is on a power load?

ughughghguhguhguhhghghhhhhghggggg

[Deckard]

Haha, yeah turpitude. What a word.

I'll try and slip that one into a conversation this weekend.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Uh-oh.

Apparently, the only way one can be freed from these moral convictions is go on national tele promos and say, "I'm sorry, and I have found god."

Oh, and you better be Republican if you want to keep your job.

I think the above may get me blamed for dividing everyone. :eek:

Oh, and I forgot, you need to be married with children too.

[chuck]

Yeah - the phrase: "moral turpitude" is on the form - least it was when i last flew into the US. which was a couple of years back.

It's the I-94 or something - visa waiver form - if you're from a friendly country then you get 90 days for free. You still might have your rectum probed, but they'll smile while they're doing it. Or let you smile.

'self-styled dandy' - noice one.

all the guff from the US state departmento. (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html)

[Strangelet]

It's the I-94 or something - visa waiver form - if you're from a friendly country then you get 90 days for free. You still might have your rectum probed, but they'll smile while they're doing it. Or let you smile.


That's to make sure you don't take away our Freedomz(TM)(c)

[cacophony]

i guess i'm the only one who doesn't see a problem. the US has a program that lets folks from SOME and not all countries on on sort of a preferred access basis. he didn't need to apply for a visa, he could get right in if he merited the fast track to the front of the line.

there are laws (whether i believe in them or not) about the acquisition, transportation, and usage of certain narcotics. he admits that he is a current user of these narcotics. goes to reason that during his stay he'd probably want to get his hands on a hit or two.

he's still welcome to apply for a visa. he just misses out on the fast-track quickie express lane because he participates in activities that violate the law of the land he's interested in visiting.

where's the real harm? where exactly is the shame? i've been plenty ashamed of this country over its immigration and international travel screening practices. but i fail to see this as a good example of one of those embarrassing incidents. call me cynical, but it seems to me that this story is conveniently supportive of this author's view of himself as a hedonist of his self-styled "underworld." it's terribly useful PR which he can use to support his claims of living the most sinful, decadent life, isn't it?

"It is unfortunate that his voice, in person, is being stifled.

oh yeah. i'm really going to miss out on hearing more from this douchebag.

[dubman]

cacophony gets her BLD streak at the end there...

[BeautifulBurnout]

i guess i'm the only one who doesn't see a problem. the US has a program that lets folks from SOME and not all countries on on sort of a preferred access basis. he didn't need to apply for a visa, he could get right in if he merited the fast track to the front of the line.

there are laws (whether i believe in them or not) about the acquisition, transportation, and usage of certain narcotics. he admits that he is a current user of these narcotics. goes to reason that during his stay he'd probably want to get his hands on a hit or two.

he's still welcome to apply for a visa. he just misses out on the fast-track quickie express lane because he participates in activities that violate the law of the land he's interested in visiting.

where's the real harm? where exactly is the shame? i've been plenty ashamed of this country over its immigration and international travel screening practices. but i fail to see this as a good example of one of those embarrassing incidents. call me cynical, but it seems to me that this story is conveniently supportive of this author's view of himself as a hedonist of his self-styled "underworld." it's terribly useful PR which he can use to support his claims of living the most sinful, decadent life, isn't it?



oh yeah. i'm really going to miss out on hearing more from this douchebag.

Oh, I dunno. I suppose it is perfectly proper for you to want to keep out an unsavory character like him from the country who is the number one porn producer in the world and is central to the international trafficking of cocaine. Makes perfect sense.

By the way, does the US ever let any Dutch visitors in at all, because drug-taking and prostitution are legal in Holland, so presumably everyone from Holland must lack moral turpitude in that respect, mustn't they? :rolleyes:
his claims of living the most sinful, decadent life...

Yeah, really good reasons to refuse people entry too. Maybe he should have repented and found christ at the airport and they would have let him in. Seemed to work for your drug-using, adulterous Presidents in the past. :D

You can't understand why it irritates us so much? I can put it in two simple words for you: double standards.

[cacophony]

histrionics aside, i get the whole frustration over double standards. still, i expect double standards. from every bureaucratic institution on earth. without exception.

i'm just saying, no one denied him a visa. did you read that part in the story? he was only denied the fast track entrance. so what? so they created some mythical moral standard that they want the fast tracked entries to adhere to, in order to feel like they've provided some semblance of "national security." so what? so they want to regard the quick entry method as a "be on your best behavior" gift to upstanding "moral" members of the world community. so what? at what point does any nation owe you less screening? i don't see you crying for the people who are citizens of nations who aren't on the fast-track eligibility list.

it's like going to a party at someone's house and announcing at the door that you quite enjoy setting rugs on fire. and then getting mad when the person hosting the party says, "yeah, i kind of like my rug the way it is. i'm not sure i want you here. why don't you hold up a second and give me your lighter and matches before you come in."

and of course, this guest is now holding press conferences and having his publicist use the denial of matches to promote his book, "a lifetime of setting rugs on fire, one man's journey into pyromania."

seriously. so what?

[Strangelet]

seriously. so what?


OK, I don't think you understand what it means to be denied entry. Its not some happy fast track system that he doesn't get to participate in. For the rest of his life he's got a red flag on his profile (yes they keep profiles) and if any border guard here on out asks him if he's ever been denied entry (yes they ask) he's got to say yes at which point he'll more than likely be denied entry twice. Then he's got to only travel to the states when it is only absolutely necessary, or like my wife (because she's currently in that position, having been denied entry twice after being searched and detained for hours) has to travel with her Father (not me, that's suspicous) to an entirely different city like Vegas to make it look like a harmless vacation. At which point we can rent a car and drive to where we really wanted to go. Because the third time means you have to get a congressional appeal to remove a lifelong travel ban into the country.

So, artistic and lifestyle differences aside, its a big fucking deal, because like that old german said, first they came for the jews and then I said nothing.....

in conclusion, fuck the INS and homeland security, thanks.

[cacophony]

well i'll agree that the red flag part is retarded. but that means it's retarded for everyone, not just this douchebag. i guess i feel like this guy isn't exactly the posterchild for wrongful persecution, so it's a little ridiculous to hold him up as the example. your wife makes a much better example. i'm sure there are hundreds of people a day who would make a better example.

i can try and try and try but i just can't seem to squeeze out a tear for this guy.

like that old german said, first they came for the jews and then I said nothing.....

GODWIN'S LAW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)! thread is over! :D

in conclusion, fuck the INS and homeland security, thanks.

i don't disagree with this sentiment.

[Strangelet]

GODWIN'S LAW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)! thread is over! :D



LOL cacophony. touche.

[Sean]

well i'll agree that the red flag part is retarded. but that means it's retarded for everyone, not just this douchebag. i guess i feel like this guy isn't exactly the posterchild for wrongful persecution, so it's a little ridiculous to hold him up as the example. your wife makes a much better example. i'm sure there are hundreds of people a day who would make a better example.

i can try and try and try but i just can't seem to squeeze out a tear for this guy.I don't think the question is about whether or not this guy is someone we're all a fan of, or whether or not he's a perfect example, it's about whether the criteria is legitimate, and I don't think it is. We keep him out because he's supposedly unsavory, while meanwhile one of our own most celebrated writers was Hunter Thompson.

[cacophony]

ehhhhhhhhh feels like a stretch. it's a little more complicated than simply saying "apples and apples!"

[BrotherLovesDub]

oh yeah. i'm really going to miss out on hearing more from this douchebag.

C+

You start out fairly strong with the sarcastic "oh yeah" comment. not a bad opening but you left out other signifiers like exclamation points or curse words. good choice to use douchebag, that word is strong right now, glad you didn't opt for the weak-hearted "d-bag" contraction some people are using. i'm encouraged by your name calling and sarcasm but i need to see more from you in the future. Try to work in some "fucking fuckers" and "cockfarmers" into your rants in the future. Remember, you need to make a huge sweeping statement that offends the maximum number of people possible. Here's an example of how your statement could have made a bigger impact on the thread:

"Oh yeah! Goody fucking goody. Another fucking douchebag cockfarmer trying to tell me how to live my life? FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING FESTERING HEMORRHOID LICKER. You probably listen to Radiohead while fucking baby dolphins. Grow some balls ¥ou ginormous douchebag!"

That's just an example. I've not even read the thread but you can pretty much use that type of rant for anything. If you need additional instruction, i'll be in my office during the usual hours.

[cacophony]

yes, sir. i'll do better next time, sir. sorry, sir.

[Sean]

ehhhhhhhhh feels like a stretch. it's a little more complicated than simply saying "apples and apples!"Agreed that it's more complicated, but I think my point is still valid. If someone poses actual danger to our country, then by all means, don't let them in. But if it's just someone who doesn't live up to our "morality standards", then I just can't accept it as legitimate. So he's done drugs and visited prostitutes and was arrested once 25 years ago. There are tons of productive, legal citizens in this country who share a similar resume, I'm sure. And in fairness he claims he's been off drugs for three years. So what's the problem? According to the report, he wasn't trying to bring drugs into the country, or do anything dangerous. He was just coming here to promote his book. So where's the threat he posed that was worthy of denying him entrance to the country? This is a pretty counter-productive, idiotic policy, especially when coupled with examples like what was given by Strangelet.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

"fucking fuckers" and "cockfarmers"

And you get an A++++ with some stars and smiley faces.

[Rog]

Haha, yeah turpitude. What a word.

I'll try and slip that one into a conversation this weekend.

nahhh.....clean your paint brushes with it:D

[Deckard]

Cacophony - where did he say he was "a current user of these narcotics"? I didn't read that.

Chuck, I've never seen that moral turpitude bit on the paperwork when I've flown. Though quite possibly selective blindness on my part.....

Rog - *groan* :D

[chuck]

Deckard,

You have to turn the green paper over - I think it's in fine print on the back. It's in the bit where it asks things like:

a. Have you now or ever been, involved with Nazi Germany?
b. Are you entering the US for the purposes of Moral turpitude.
c. Are you a member of terrorist organisation?


If you've answered 'Yes' to any of these, please contact your nearest US embassy before attempting to enter the country.

Course - if you're at 35,000 feet, calmly crammed into cattle class - about 3 hours out from landing at LAX - there's not many freely available US embassys.

[Rog]

Cacophony - where did he say he was "a current user of these narcotics"? I didn't read that.

Chuck, I've never seen that moral turpitude bit on the paperwork when I've flown. Though quite possibly selective blindness on my part.....

Rog - *groan* :D

sorry..........i just had to do it

[cacophony]

Cacophony - where did he say he was "a current user of these narcotics"? I didn't read that.

"They knew more about me than I did," Horsley said Thursday in an interview from his London home. "They said, 'We know you're a heroin addict, we know you're a crack addict, we know you're involved in prostitution.'"

he used present tense. may have been an inappropriate use of present tense, i don't know. frankly i care so little about this man's worldly problems that i can't be bothered to find out. you can continue to argue his point if you like but i'm never going to be moved to tears over his plight. he's a douche, i don't care, end of story.

[Sean]

he used present tense. may have been an inappropriate use of present tense, i don't know. frankly i care so little about this man's worldly problems that i can't be bothered to find out. you can continue to argue his point if you like but i'm never going to be moved to tears over his plight. he's a douche, i don't care, end of story.I don't think anyone's all that "moved" by this guy's plight here....and even if they are, that's never been anyone's point. Frankly, I agree with you that he sounds like a douche. It seems to me that the problem everyone has is with the lame "morality" policies about entering this country and how prohibitive and possibly damaging they are in their idiocy and uselessness....regardless of whether they're applied to a douche or to Mother Theresa.

And the present tense he used appears to me to have been applied to what he was accused of, not what he himself asserted about his supposedly past drug use. He claims he stopped using drugs years ago in the article. He could be lying of course, but it's an important detail to consider in the discussion.

[cacophony]

the thing is, we're talking about a country where we can't carry open containers of booze out of restaurants. we can't, in many areas, buy booze on sundays. no drinking on trains. no beer at mcdonalds. hell, in the south there are still counties that are legally dry such as moore county, tennessee, where they make jack daniels (you can take the tour but you can't have a sip). if you get caught with a joint on you, you'd better just break every other law you can think of at that moment because you're going away for a long time. god help you if you use medical marijuana where it's been legalized by state law, because the government is still going to come and arrest your ass for violating federal drug laws.

this country ain't guilty of inconsistency.

[Sean]

in the south there are still counties that are legally dry such as moore county, tennessee, where they make jack daniels (you can take the tour but you can't have a sip). I didn't know this. That's some weird stuff right there.

[Deckard]

I don't think anyone's all that "moved" by this guy's plight here....and even if they are, that's never been anyone's point. Frankly, I agree with you that he sounds like a douche. It seems to me that the problem everyone has is with the lame "morality" policies about entering this country and how prohibitive and possibly damaging they are in their idiocy and uselessness....regardless of whether they're applied to a douche or to Mother Theresa.

And the present tense he used appears to me to have been applied to what he was accused of, not what he himself asserted about his supposedly past drug use. He claims he stopped using drugs years ago in the article. He could be lying of course, but it's an important detail to consider in the discussion.
Well this pretty much covers every point I would have made in reply.

[cacophony]

I didn't know this. That's some weird stuff right there.

come live in the south, darlin'. you'll learn things you wish you didn't know about this country.

[Strangelet]

interesting read on a canadian barred from entering the US even though he had two kids, a house, and a job in Utah. Oh yeah. not to mention a work permit and 13 years experience.

fascism is here, folks.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/03/31/bc-borderblocked.html


"Is there a war going on [at] the border that we don't know about?" Kevin Gibbons asks. "Why are Canadians getting hassled so much right now?"
Gibbons is devastated because, he said, for the first time in his life, he's looking for a job and a new home — thanks to the discretion of U.S. border guards.
"I still can't believe that this can happen. They can take your life and trash it," said Gibbons.



Gibbons said he was allowed to travel back to Utah, temporarily, to sell his home — at a huge loss — and collect the family belongings. Since coming back to Canada, he's tried to cross again, unsuccessfully, at other ports of entry — because his U.S. employer still wants him back. Gibbons said, each time, he was made to feel more and more like a criminal.



"They (Customs and Border Protection) then accused me of border shopping and said they were going to put me in jail over the weekend up in front of an immigration judge," said Gibbons.
That threat was enough to scare the Gibbons family away from the border permanently.
"It feels like we must have done something really horrible, the way they treat you," said Gibbon's wife Heather.

[Deckard]

barred from entering the US even though he had two kids, a house, and a job in Utah. Oh yeah. not to mention a work permit and 13 years experience.
Maybe he mentioned he was an atheist. :confused::rolleyes:

[cacophony]

pissant power-delirious security employees flexing their muscles and using their power to ruin lives.

sounds a hell of a lot like the regular cops: working hard to destroy lives since 1776.

[Rog]

The world is truely becoming a sad sad place:(

[BeautifulBurnout]

interesting read on a canadian barred from entering the US even though he had two kids, a house, and a job in Utah. Oh yeah. not to mention a work permit and 13 years experience.

fascism is here, folks.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/03/31/bc-borderblocked.html



The more I read, the more I resolve never to set foot in the US again (unless I really must). That is mostly not a problem. Just a damn shame.

[Sean]

The more I read, the more I resolve never to set foot in the US again (unless I really must). That is mostly not a problem. Just a damn shame.No no.....YOU can come. It's just those damn assholes from Utah we want out....

[King of Snake]

interesting read on a canadian barred from entering the US even though he had two kids, a house, and a job in Utah. Oh yeah. not to mention a work permit and 13 years experience.

fascism is here, folks.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/03/31/bc-borderblocked.html


that is just unreal. Incomprehensable that border guards can just do that to someone :(

[Rog]

No no.....YOU can come. It's just those damn assholes from Utah we want out....

Heh! good post:D:D

utah assoles u u u utah assholes

[Sean]

So I just read the whole article, and I'm floored. I mean, I could understand if it was just an incident or two for this guy at the border that gets straightened out on further review, but this actually went so far that he's been deported and had to sell his house in the U.S. for a loss, not to mention the fact that he can't even meet his new grandson because he's unable to cross the border. This reminds me of the same kind of idiocy we see in zero tolerance policies in schools.

Humans evolved to become the dominant species on the planet because of our ability to exercise critical thought. I can't help but think we're devolving when I see crap like this.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I can't help but think we're devolving when I see crap like this.

Never fear Sean-Boy, I'm working on it. :p