Riots in Tibet

[BeautifulBurnout]

Linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7297911.stm)

I seem to recall the US pulling out of the 1980 Olympics in Moscow because the USSR had invaded Afghanistan - oh the irony! - so I am pretty much staggered that the only person who is pulling out of the Beijing so far seems to be a film producer.

It is interesting to see how far our governments will go to protect China's image, and play down the apalling human rights breaches that are inflicted on the chinese and tibetan people on a daily basis. As long ago as 1999 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/480422.stm), Londoners were banned from protesting in our own city during the state visit of Jiang Zemin (which preceded any legislation requiring permission to protest - they relied on some obscure by-law preventing protests in Royal parks.)

Still, access to the Chinese market is far more important than any of this stuff. :rolleyes:

[Sarcasmo]

It really is sad. China has been a horrid polluter, terrible on human rights, politically shady, when not outright overagressive, and because our country is so direly in need of cheap, mass-produced trash, we refuse to do anything. What's really sad is that I don't even think our governments are trying all that hard to preserve China's image. Anyone with rudimentary research skills can learn about how China has sacrificed everything in the name of their economy for the last 15 years. Our governments simply shrug their shoulders as if to say, "What are we gonna do? We need the shit they make and they have too many people to fight." I can so easily see China dominating the world stage in 50 years. Not a pleasant thought, considering how open they are to outside criticism.

[mmm skyscraper]

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

True dat. Also I think Sarcasmo is being optimistic if he thinks it will take as long as 50 years for the Chinese to be the dominant world power.

[cacophony]

america is so in debt to china that i think we actually owe them our next three generations of children and the gold fillings in our teeth.

can't really bite the hand that pwn3s you.

[Sarcasmo]

america is so in debt to china that i think we actually owe them our next three generations of children and the gold fillings in our teeth.

can't really bite the hand that pwn3s you.

Not when they can spontaneously create an army of a billion...

[BeautifulBurnout]

they (journalists) said china is afraid to fall apart
to lose not just tibet
Yeah, I heard a commentator putting that point on the radio this morning. I think the issue I have is that the Chinese, no matter what they say to the contrary, have tried to destroy the Tibetan culture and control and manipulate their religious leaders.

It is well to remember that Tibet has only been part of China since 1950, and the Tibetans suffered horrendous massacres at the time of the first big uprising in 1959 - Chinese sources themselves admit that 80,000 Tibetans died during and immediately after the uprising. Of the 6000 Tibetan monasteries in existance prior to the occupation, only 12 were left standing . The Chinese have undertaken a policy of "repopulation" of Tibet, similar to the occupation of the West Bank by Jewish settlers. Except that the Chinese now outnumber the Tibetans in their own country.

Not to mention reports of forced sterilisation, abuse and torture. And the now infamous banning of reincarnation of a Lama outside China :)

So yeah. At what point do we accept that this former sovereign nation no longer has the right to cry freedom? Should we ever accept it as being just another Chinese province?

[chuck]

And now the IOC are just making up silly words to justify having the Olympics there.

International Olympic Committee chief Jacques Rogge believes the games could be a changing factor in China.


"We believe that China will change by opening the country to the scrutiny of the world through the 25,000 media who will attend the games," he said in a statement.


"Awarding the Olympic Games to the most populous country in the world will open up one fifth of mankind to Olympism."


Storms ahead for Olympic torch (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7310654.stm)

wtf is "olympism" - sounds like something pornographic that Willy Wonka's workers get up too after a night on the turps.

I see China is planning to take the flame up to the top of Mount Everest - nothing like the spirit of 'our flame has gone higher than anyone elses - sucks to be round-eye! ha!' to bring the huddled masses together. :rolleyes:

oh my - such cynicism and still so far out from the actual event.

[Sean]

Paramilitary police opened fire on hundreds of monks, nuns and Tibetans who tried to march on a local government office in western China yesterday to demand the return of the Dalai Lama.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3612661.ece

[pafufta816]

this whole situation saddens me. it's bitingly absurd that the US government claims to be spreading democracy in the middle east, when it supports china, russia, saudi arabia, etc. how can a democratic ideology flourish when the message is one of support for violations of human rights and censorship through violence?

[BeautifulBurnout]

What pisses me off big time is that, once again, the British Govt. are talking about creating a "ring of steel" round the route of the Olympic Torch when it comes to London to prevent Free Tibet activists from demonstrating. Same as in my first post where they prevented demos against the then Chinese Premier's visit.

WTF?! This is MY country, not some Chinese province, as far as I am aware. The Free Tibet movement is largely made up of Buddhists who are, surprisingly enough, pacifists and non-violent. :rolleyes:

Why are the people in government so frightened of a few banners and Tibetan flags and a bunch of loud hailers? Freedom of speech my ass.

Gets right on my wick, I can tell you. :mad:

[Sarcasmo]

Yeah, God forbid they profane our precious, scandal-riddled Olympics.

[Deckard]

Oops, that's snuffed it! (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1311970,00.html)

[chuck]

There was an article the other day in paper here - sorry, don't have a link, but gist of it was that apart from family and immediate supporters of competitors - there not a lot of punters lining up, or booking tickets or tour packages to the Beijing Olympics.

Apart from the pollution issues, the human rights issues, there's not really that much of a demand to go.

Potentially this could be a complete cock-up for the Chinese authorities. This is after all, meant to be the great, triumphant announcement to the world, about the glory of the 21st century China.

But if no-one turns up to watch - and to date it's been a PR disaster. Having to put out the 'flame of peace - that binds the nations' is a bit of a joke really. It's even more idiotic/ironic than the wall of steel that surrounds GW when he's touring. We're talking about a symbolic icon for gods sake.

Anyway - it's not like NZ is doing much about it - we've just become the first Western nation to sign a free trade agreement with the Chinese - so all 4 million of us are about to shipped to Shanghai in a deal for cheap labour. The sheep do get to stay behind and look after the place.

[m.g.]

The torch thing was quite a bit of a mess here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7334545.stm) (they actually stopped the ceremony at some point due to demonstrations all along the way & it was not "several hundred" but many thousands... & erm... i was a bit around, just to add my voice...).

I think the IOC is one of the biggest bunch of cynical corrupted people (but everybody knows that...).

There are constant debates on tv & newspapers here & when a Chinese representative dares to speak or express an official position it invariably starts with "well, you don't know anything about Chinese history & you should not forget that Tibet belongs to China since 12th century..." :mad:

I think China anyway needs the resources that Tibet owns & the also wants to own the land which is the border with one of their "best" enemy (China). The other thing is that their not really reporting in Chinese medias what's really happening here & there in the world, plus internet is totally under control there (thanks yahoo & others...)

China is NOT a democratic country anyway & the 1st mistake was the IOC giving the Olympic Games to Beijing (with the absolutely fake pretext that it'll be good for democracy & changes there :eek:).

I think boycotting the Games is for nothing (it's too late & it'll only affect the athletes...) but everybody here & there should speak, shout, demonstrate, resist, wear a badge or a t-shirt, carry a Tibet flag, do whatever possible & something will always remain if there are millions of people expressing their disgust of that situation...

VoilÃ*. Nothing is never for nothing.

[cacophony]

I think boycotting the Games is for nothing (it's too late & it'll only affect the athletes...)

see, i disagree with this view. there seem to be two arguments with regards to the validity of the games this time around:

1) china's human rights violations make it an ill-suited venue and the games should be boycotted in order to send a message.

2) the games are about athletes who train hard and deserve to compete, so leave politics out of it.

my big problem with #2 is that it implies that athletes are somehow a special reserved class of people who should be coddled and cushioned and kept from disappointment because they "work hard." well you know who else works hard? the people who fight to have their voices heard in a country that squashes the freedom of its citizens. i don't understand how the idea of someone skiing down a slope or flipping around a pommel horse outweighs the importance of basic human rights.

the games should be boycotted. period. i'm willing to let a small minority of competitive jocks be disappointed, if it sends a greater message about the lives and welfare of innocent people.

and let's just set aside this whole "good will" crap. the olympics are not about good will. they're about advertising dollars and ridiculous jingoistic shows of competitiveness.

[Rog]

maybe its time they were scrapped completely?

[cacophony]

wouldn't make a difference to me. i have no taste for sports.

[m.g.]

see, i disagree with this view. there seem to be two arguments with regards to the validity of the games this time around:

1) china's human rights violations make it an ill-suited venue and the games should be boycotted in order to send a message.

2) the games are about athletes who train hard and deserve to compete, so leave politics out of it.

my big problem with #2 is that it implies that athletes are somehow a special reserved class of people who should be coddled and cushioned and kept from disappointment because they "work hard." well you know who else works hard? the people who fight to have their voices heard in a country that squashes the freedom of its citizens. i don't understand how the idea of someone skiing down a slope or flipping around a pommel horse outweighs the importance of basic human rights.

the games should be boycotted. period. i'm willing to let a small minority of competitive jocks be disappointed, if it sends a greater message about the lives and welfare of innocent people.

and let's just set aside this whole "good will" crap. the olympics are not about good will. they're about advertising dollars and ridiculous jingoistic shows of competitiveness.I don't think that "athletes are somehow a special reserved class of people" but I don't think that athletes should be taken as a pretext or as "hostages", precisely for something as important for them as Olympics Games & specially to balance the failures of politics regarding human rights and/or companies making business with China (& closing their eyes/hears about what happens there...).

Athletes can also, while in the Games, speak or show messages or wear a badge (as they do in France now) or boycotting the opening ceremony, etc...

I think that what happens now should be in the hands of politics but apparently they're not doing/saying anything significant against the situation in Tibet (& in China). They should have started in the 50's when China invaded Tibet, companies should have started by imposing conditions (re: minimum human rights levels, freedom of press, death penalty, etc...) before going there. And nobody did.

I'll finally add that if everybody was boycotting everything which wasn't clean regarding human rights, there will be a lot of things in a lot of countries which should be boycotted... & no need for that to go as far as China... (randomly & totally non exhaustively : Burma, Afghanistan, Russia, Irak, pharmaceutical laboratories, death penalty, torture, Guantanamo, Irak, Monsanto, freedom of press, etc...).

I think people should shout, people should demonstrate & resist, people should talk to people & most of all people should vote & elect the correct people at the correct places. Always. Period.

[chuck]

Sports and politics are a horrible mix - and I say that as an ardent sports fan/atic (depending on the sport) - but they are definitely linked. They can be used by both sides, with varying degrees of success.

The boycott of the apartheid-era South Africa - particularly in relation to rugby - struck to the core of what it was to be white south african male. The boycotts of the Moscow and then LA Olympics were last rattles of the Cold War to some extent.

A large number of African nations boycotted the 1976 games (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/17/newsid_3555000/3555450.stm) in protest at NZ still playing rugby with SA at the time. The closest we had to anarchy on the streets (and there was blood) was when the Springboks toured here in 1981 - that really split the country. And still does.

Have they had an impact? Debatable.

We should keep making the point, - and I'm firmly in the camp that says that China should be held accountable. But it's debatable how much of an impact a specific boycott by athletes would have at this point.

Most nations are bending over backwards to either get into the Chinese market, and we're all sucking up their goods like there's no tomorrow.

I just appreciate that most people I know - are seeing the current Olympic setup for what it is - big money, big money, big money. I'm all for supporting the athletes in their individual endeavors and the patriotic part of me will cheer on the NZ ones.

But doing that - to me at least - does not condone what China is all about in regards to human rights abuses, pollution issues, trade practices. Nor does it prevent me from having some concerns about NZ's FT deal with them.

Right - I'm off to heat up some humble pie and eat it over in the thread about arsenal being pwned!

[Strangelet]

I'm with chuck and m.g.


While I don't like the IOC, the games should have always been a politically neutral entity or not exist at all, because I thought the whole point was to have something that would be politically nuetral so as to counter balance the heavy bloody rest of international relationships. I honestly didn't think the olympics were meant to be reducible to a physical display of spoiled teenagers with overbearing parents, but a way of opening up a safe conduit for international communication.

Otherwise, I agree, it should be just scrapped because who the fuck cares about synchronized swimming anyway?

So I am happy for the tibetans, the sudanese, and the chinese students getting the attention they deserve, I just think its folly that the torch run had to be what everyone decided to pin their symbolic rallying point around.

And like m.g. said, there's probably a good number of people who would want to argue, whether right or wrong, that american action in Iraq is enough moral justification to boycott our shit next time.

[cacophony]

And like m.g. said, there's probably a good number of people who would want to argue, whether right or wrong, that american action in Iraq is enough moral justification to boycott our shit next time.

i agree with that and i'd like to see the rest of the world send this message.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I agree with MG on this too. My solution would be for the Olympics to be held in Athens every 4 years, rather than being a commercial travelling circus it is today. Participating countries would all contribute financially to the running of the event, as would commercial sponsors, bringing it back to what it was intended to be - a celebration of sport, not the glorification of the host country.

The cost to host countries is immense - I believe Montreal is still paying a tax surcharge to service the debt incurred when they hosted the games in 1976! So to have a fixed venue seems a far more reasonable way of taking the politics out of this and making sure host countries don't bankrupt themselves in the process.

In terms of boycotting the China games, it is a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has been turned into cat meat. The voices of protest should have been louder and more frequent during the period leading up to the games being awarded to China - if the IOC realised then the extent to which people were opposed, it might well have influenced their decision. But now it is done, it is a bit late. None of the the "superpowers" will boycott in the same way as in 80 or 84, so it is all a bit silly now.

On another more serious note (imo :p) :

Tibetan Monks held over "bomb plot". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7344984.stm)

What a complete load of bollocks. Buddhist monks don't go round killing people. They are simply being held hostage, imo. :mad: