sherburne on underworld

[kid cue]

http://www.emusic.com/features/spotlight/281_200610.html

an interesting take, sure to inspire ire

[Liam]

Hmmm... I find that I am inclined to dissagree with almost every single point that he makes.

[dubman]

well, i find that i agree with him about their relevance. he pretty much hit the nail and called it out in terms of what underworld means to the larger audience. it's even rather true about dubnobass. it *was* an accident. a mash of tracks they did in a post-mk1 haze that they realized would make a good album (something sid in an interview at some point), but things get cold when he starts trying to analyze the feel of STITI and conclude that it was grasping at straws or going unbalanced. he praises the linearity of twist in one breath, and mentions the album rowla is on as 'going through the motions.' the frantic aspect of pearl's girl is construed as a bad thing (???), and the criticism gets more abstract and stops saying anything valuable altogether in talking about beaucoup fish.
he uses the jarring aspects of their tunes and, from what i can tell, the variation and different attitudes contained within each one, as a sign of failure, and that the desire to load a song with sounds is supposed to be a creative dead end. this isnt a fucking theivery corporation album. the CD isnt going to be water off a duck's back, it's going to be different. not blow your mind different, and not especially harder to digest, but as one good line put it, "the fiftieth listen is better than the fifth." this doesnt especially warm them to everyone, but the people who would have problems with it can name a lot of things about the music that bother them a lot more than just FLOW.

he also implies that this is division of styles is signifying a lack of creative inspiration, and that they dont know what they're doing. now, let's bring tomato into this. i dont know about you guys, but a large part of why i include 'beaucoup fish' as possible favorite of mine is because the visual aspects of the album --brought out in their videos, live tour, artwork-- reached the high point. it was brilliant and inseperable. dubnobass was certainly incredible on this front in terms of album artwork, but i dont feel the same inseperable aspects, as that artwork could stand alone in the 'skyscraper' book, and frankly the videos were rather weak and the style undeveloped. BF introduced to me how such abstract visuals could fuse to music on a fundamental level. it's not "music videos", where fast music gets fast imagery... it's opening different possibilites for the visual medium in electronic music other than hyper-technologial fetishism (something electronic music in general is always in danger of), and being specific to the same aesthetic that ran the album.

all this noise and praise might not detract from the fact that it was also UW's major break from the public, and i'm not contesting that, but that seems to be also his main argument behind the creative fall of underworld, and that an album as relatively lousy as AHDO (a lot of individual tracks are great, but it never really came together as a whole for me) is actually a blueprint for future brilliance. theres a reason why the riverruns have been so refreshing, and it's because they realized they needed to pull out of the complacency apparent on ahdo and especially on tracks like DA3D. while i do agree that they sound like they're trying to find themselves again, i dont think it really lies in AHDO, and the hasty rationalizations for their increasing obscurity seem casually lazy and dont serve as a good bridge to his future points. perhaps a large reason that half as many people bought AHDO was because with the much more pervalent P2P, people could just casually download and listen to see if it was really worth forking the cash for, and unless you were a FAN, there was little to immediately say this one should have been bought over a host of other ones that year, if indeed these people bought albums anymore.

and on a basic level, this guy just sounds old. he basically called out 'kittens' for fulfilling a depraved drug high and overshooting the mark, then favored 'twist' for its light touches of whathaveyous and "flavor." personally i prefer a relentless beat with a lot of noise and without the drugs than the lazy-sunday "chill down compilation"-ness of twist. if your basic problem involves you covering your ears and complaining about the bass, then you're just asking your bands to be friendlier to you, not to find a creative spark.

[King of Snake]

Who the f*ck is Philip Sherburne anyway and why should we care about anything he says? ;)

really, I really don't see the point of some columnist overanalysing some band or some music and trying to prove some "point" that can't be proven and using lots of big fancy words to do it.

a main-stage act grown accustomed to playing enormous, amphetamine-fueled festival crowds, where altitude becomes not a luxury but an imperative. Reduced to facilitating the indefinite buildup of adrenaline and the unbridled release of serotonin, the group ends up flailing in its very pursuit of transcendence.

uhhh....yeah man. Like...totally...whatever.
It's not even clear what the piece is supposed to be... is it a review of AHDO, or some sort of career overview?

His comments about STITI alone are proof enough that the guy doesn't have a clue. Or rather, proof enough that an opinion is just that, an opinion.

[BeautifulBurnout]

He has to make a living somehow, the poor man! :p

And it is so much more fashionable these days for critics to be, well, critical, especially on the other side of the pond.

He has some good points in there, but he strikes me more as someone who has barely listened to the music at all, almost certainly never set foot in an Underworld gig in his life, and is putting his own spin on already-published articles that have been written over the years, with a huge leap in assumption to replace actual knowledge and/or proper research.

But hey. We are the "hardcore fans" after all. So we are not going to appreciate the negativity.

[Eikman]

i wonder if he gets paid to mention villalobos in every freaking article he writes these days....

besides that, the article doesn't appear to me as necessarily negative...

[Leon]

I just can't agree with his points, he's just wrong :p


And he should listen to STITI more :p

[kid cue]

the response was shocking

KOS i especially love your manifold defense mechanism-statements

Sherburne is probably the best person writing anything on techno today. he also spins techno. he opened for Michael Mayer in NYC not very long ago. not that i agree with him either, Beaucoup Fish is still my favorite.

anyway, last night i dreamt that UW released a new, 2CD version of AHDO and it was a million million times better.

[BeautifulBurnout]

the response was shocking

KOS i especially love your manifold defense mechanism-statements

Sherburne is probably the best person writing anything on techno today. he also spins techno. he opened for Michael Mayer in NYC not very long ago. not that i agree with him either, Beaucoup Fish is still my favorite.

anyway, last night i dreamt that UW released a new, 2CD version of AHDO and it was a million million times better.
Come, now. Are you sure you were shocked, having posted a vaguely negative article about UW on .... wait for it ... an Underworld Forum? I think, rather, you posted, then sat back and ate popcorn as you flushed out the fanboy/fangirls with their "manifold defence mechanisms" as usual duckie?

Ah well. Hope you have fun. Blood sports are traditional on Boxing Day after all. :p

[GreenPea]

That is really insightful BLD. :rolleyes:

[kid cue]

Come, now. Are you sure you were shocked, having posted a vaguely negative article about UW on .... wait for it ... an Underworld Forum? I think, rather, you posted, then sat back and ate popcorn as you flushed out the fanboy/fangirls with their "manifold defence mechanisms" as usual duckie?

Ah well. Hope you have fun. Blood sports are traditional on Boxing Day after all. :p
christ you're unappealing

as i said, i thought it was "an interesting take, sure to inspire ire"

[kid cue]

philip sherburne is past his expiration date. star-struck, coked up cock sucking pansy ass bitch. that's the first thing that comes to mind when i see his name. i refuse to read his "articles" anymore since they all turn into "villalobos let me hear some unreleased stuff and you can't hear it" bullshit pieces.

if i wanted to hear from a moron with an inflated ego, i'd record my own thoughts. no need for philip sherburne's cocktastic moronic insights.

hopefully the ego monster that is Philip Sherburne will do the obnoxious ego-monster thing and google himself this weekend and find this post. Hey Philip, I hope you choke on a giant mound of coke teetering off Ricardo's shrivelled dick.
i don't care about Villalobos either, but HOW OLD ARE YOU?

[BeautifulBurnout]

christ you're unappealing

as i said, i thought it was "an interesting take, sure to inspire ire"
And christ, you are incapable of conducting a sensible, intelligent discussion without making personal comments.

If you had something sensible to say about the article and the music other than "I had a dream they released a 2 CD version of AHDO" then it would be worthy of discussion.

You are trolling, Duckie. You are enjoying every minute of it. It is in your nature. I don't give a flying f*ck whether you think I am "appealing" or not, but if you are going to spout BS and make personal comments about forum members again instead of adding something sensible to a topic, you can expect to get called on it.

Now I am sure there must be a spider in the corner that you could pull the legs off instead, if you are that bored.

Alternatively, you could add to this topic by some serious musical opinion, at which point I will engage with you on a sensible level.

Ta.

[kid cue]

anyway, i think his view is definitely colored by his own fixation on minimal, and that genre's concepts of 'balance' and 'restraint', esp. given how he compares his favorite tracks on AHDO to Villalobos and Luciano.

(does Villalobos count as minimal?)

it's also ironic that he doesn't think to read any of UW's albums as albums, since he's (said that he's) a bedroom listener at heart. i do kind of agree with him on STITI, though--it always felt a bit too big, like every track was trying to reach a bit too far. and the drum & bass track (i forget the title) always felt a little too timely & obvious. i think i never thought of STITI in these terms because the uniform production (smooth, hazy, like in 'soft-focus') made me want the whole thing to make sense.

but better that than (as dubman says) AHDO-esque complacency..

ps. i wrote this before reading Beautiful Burnout's motherly scolding

[kid cue]

hey, what happened to BLD's last post?

i was going to say that: you're right, but i don't know of any other bloggers/writers who actually care about techno. most of the ones i know are all about 'urban' music etc.

[BeautifulBurnout]

HAH!!!

So if you wrote that before my motherly scolding... how come you knew I had given you a motherly scolding? Ain't seein' no "last edited by..." on your post! :D

Nuff scolding now, anyway. ;)


Aside from that, I think there is a time-warp in that he tries to compare STITI with a genre that is really much more recent (and, yeah, Villalobos is minimal in my book). It is a bit like comparing apples and oranges imo. STITI pushed the boundaries at the time, exploring different musical areas, not just "dance" or "prog" or "ambient" but, for example, with tracks like Juanita/Kiteless/TDOL, were developping a more whole, rounded piece that incorporated
all of those things in a single piece.

I am really not suprised that Juanita comes up as the fan's favourite in polls because it represents the essence of the whole UW sound. Something that is difficult to categorise.

As for Sherburne being a "bedroom listener" that would tend to indicate to me that he would listen to albums as a whole, wouldn't it?

[kid cue]

You are trolling, Duckie. You are enjoying every minute of it. It is in your nature.the fact is this: i thought the article was interesting, and immediately thought to post it on dirty. the first association i make with dirty is Underworld, whether that's right or not. i also knew that i was NOT looking forward to continue posting in a thread on dirty about this article, if i chose to actually do so. there's a reason i never post in this particular forum. there are other forums i go to for "serious music discussion", when i need it, but no one on any of them gives a toss about Underworld (except for ... two people).

the fact is, i am not enjoying this at all, but i also couldn't stop myself from getting annoyed. i know--in which i shouldn't have posted a link to (what i thought was) an interesting article in the first place. but the anti-intellectual attitude expressed in KOS's post is literally one of my top 5 pet peeves, next to racism and dead bugs.

[kid cue]

Duckie, the thing is, i'm glad you're stirring up shit. this forum has been dead and boring for too long now. I enjoy having someone like you around regardless of whether our opinions clash. My issue here is with Philip, not you. Well, maybe your star-struck view of Philip. I'm not so enamoured as you can tell. Anyway, my last post was a bit too directed towards you and that's not where my annoyance lies w/r/t this thread. i thought that bit about being a real techno DJ (!!) and opening for Mayer probably came across as too star-struck. i don't even think i agree with him a lot (for one, he's completely up his arse about dubstep), but i still think he writes intelligently about techno. and i like having HIM around, since it'd be really easy to ignore (from a critical perspective). anyway, i appreciate it.

[kid cue]

HAH!!!

So if you wrote that before my motherly scolding... how come you knew I had given you a motherly scolding? Ain't seein' no "last edited by..." on your post! :D
because "last edited by..." doesn't show up if you edit your post quickly enough

[viddy]

I'm going to have to admit that I agree with the article's view of STITI when I first heard the album. As a teenager, all I wanted from the album was more of the "cool" sound of Pearl's Girl. I really hated STITI.

But it grew on me. I listened to the album more and more, and now it has become one of my favorite albums of all time. It simply is one of those albums that isn't "heard" and understood right off the bat. It grew on me and I started hearing more out of the album's tracks that I did at first. It reminds me of jazz, because at first listen (at least to me) the average person doesn't really "feel" and understand jazz (I was the same way). The more I listen to it, the more I "feel" it and understand it's complexities. STITI is in my opinion a very "deep" album. My biggest example being Sappy's Curry (and Banstyle too).

and I'll stop using "quotes" now :D

[dubman]

goddamnit i hate how somehow i never stay logged in. had a thought out reply to all this mess and now its gone.

so in essence:
it was good to post the article, it lets people step out of their fanboy bubble and discuss underworld in the context of everyone else, not just you and underworld. even though i dismissed 2/3rds of it because i'm and underworld fan and he's a minimalist (something i dont really see the point in), i thought it was much more thought out than the responses it got ("he's obviously never been to a live show") and certainly the accusations of trolling were. articles like these should help forum members articulate *why* they love underworld past "OMG THEY BRING LIGHT IN" and look at what their beliefs are that lead to that in contrast with his. i'd rather be talking about this (because this place *can* talk about music seriously, thanks, it just doesnt happen (as) often), like whether or not underworld fail their attempts at transcendance because of the music's structure, then talking about hypothetical collaborations, niggling unreleased shit, and shit posted on ebay (except for the tokyo cds, that was rad).

[BeautifulBurnout]

To clarify: the accusation of trolling came not from the posting of the article itself, but from the "ha ha look at the fanboys' responses *pointing finger*" reaction, with no comment on the article at all. That was, imo, an unhelpful thing to post, taking the focus away from the subject matter, (which is the reason for posting the article in the first place, it seems,) and veering in the direction of personal attack instead of musical debate. I thought I said that earlier :confused:

Yes, it is important to have musical debate here. It is important for people to examine why it is they like or dislike a particular track or a particular album if they want to. It is also important to remember that nobody is obliged to, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. And, while intellectualism has its place, discussions on the relative merits of intellectualism vs anti-intellectualism would be better suited to the world forum than to the music sections.

The wonderful thing about Dirty is that it unites people from all ages, backgrounds, creeds, colours, walks of life and occupations. Some are intellectual, some are not, some are anti-intellectual. Some express themselves marvellously eloquently, others don't. But we all like the music otherwise we wouldn't be here and that is the cement of the forum. There is no such thing as "too thick to like Underworld" to the best of my knowledge :p ;)

[dubman]

To clarify: the accusation of trolling came not from the posting of the article itself, but from the "ha ha look at the fanboys' responses *pointing finger*" reaction, with no comment on the article at all. That was, imo, an unhelpful thing to post, taking the focus away from the subject matter, (which is the reason for posting the article in the first place, it seems,) and veering in the direction of personal attack instead of musical debate. I thought I said that earlier :confused:

Yes, it is important to have musical debate here. It is important for people to examine why it is they like or dislike a particular track or a particular album if they want to. It is also important to remember that nobody is obliged to, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. And, while intellectualism has its place, discussions on the relative merits of intellectualism vs anti-intellectualism would be better suited to the world forum than to the music sections.



the issue behind the pointing and laughing at the fanboys was how utterly incapable a majority were at being able to craft a decent response that didnt call him coked out or ignorant. whether this guy knows what he's talking about or not, he's respected enough to be widely read, and now that he takes a potshot at UW, all of a sudden he's 10 different synonyms of "washed-up". thats why you get laughed at.

and what the hell do you mean when you say intellectualism has its place? we're still talking about underworld, and we're still definately talking about music. this is just incorporating a certain attitude that's pretty pervalent in this forum into that discussion and to say that "now you're thinking too hard, take it to the world forum" is A BIG REASON why it's hard to take this section seriously sometimes.


The wonderful thing about Dirty is that it unites people from all ages, backgrounds, creeds, colours, walks of life and occupations. Some are intellectual, some are not, some are anti-intellectual. Some express themselves marvellously eloquently, others don't. But we all like the music otherwise we wouldn't be here and that is the cement of the forum. There is no such thing as "too thick to like Underworld" to the best of my knowledge :p ;)

that sounds just peachy, but you're talking about the internet more than you're talking about dirty. and letting everyone float around in this haze "i just want to BE, man" without having to explain themselves allows DUMBASSES to get away with their dumbass opinion because they're simply "not eloquent" and "there's a place for intellectualism" when really you're just faced with someone whos lazy and doesnt register this conceptual bubble of uncritical and forced acceptance, even in the face of something ludicrous. it's just a place here their dumbassery goes unmolested.

but now i'm talking about the internet and not dirty, so let me relate this back to here.
what you're doing, is by forcibly accepting all and trying to understand and adapt to everyone character, is encouraging stultifying, non-critical conversation that repress things like heatedness and your interpretation of "negative vibes" simply for what? someone's ego? because dirty is such a safe haven that peoples bad argument skills shouldnt be pointed out and their ignorance ignored? this forum isnt going to shit because a few people viciously argue about something. it goes to shit when no one here has a reason past unfocused anger or bleeding positivity. the glue you're talking about is a fairly loose one and it implies that just because you like underworld that you're a voice worth hearing around here. i cant think of many members that contradict that (well, i can, but this isnt the place) but the logic is flawed, not to mention self-insulating.

[BeautifulBurnout]

what you're doing, is by forcibly accepting all and trying to understand and adapt to everyone character, is encouraging stultifying, non-critical conversation that repress things like heatedness and your interpretation of "negative vibes" simply for what? someone's ego? because dirty is such a safe haven that peoples bad argument skills shouldnt be pointed out and their ignorance ignored? this forum isnt going to shit because a few people viciously argue about something. it goes to shit when no one here has a reason past unfocused anger or bleeding positivity. the glue you're talking about is a fairly loose one and it implies that just because you like underworld that you're a voice worth hearing around here. i cant think of many members that contradict that (well, i can, but this isnt the place) but the logic is flawed, not to mention self-insulating.

So what you are effectively saying is that the people who cannot argue with the same intellectual capacities as you have no voice here, without risking ridicule from the elite few who happen to have an excellent education and above-average argument skills? Jesus, this is a music forum, not the College debating union. It is not about form, it is about substance. If one constantly ignores the substance to criticise the form from ones elitist ivory tower, it alienates the 95% of the population who do not have the same debating skills as you, and they stop posting for fear of being remonstrated with for not being intellectually up-to-the-mark. That is what stultifies discussion. Self-styled, snug intellectuals with their "holier than thou", self-mastubatory rhetoric and critique of those less eloquent than they. There is a huge difference between education and intelligence.

Tell me, would you use the same language talking to the guy in McDonalds, and mock him if he replied with weak argumentative skills? Or would you just not engage in conversation with him in the first place because he is not worthy?

There is a big world out there - not everyone is as fortunate as you or I to have had the educational opportunities we have. Not everyone is fortunate enought to have the intellectual capacity we have. Do we therefore disregard anything they have to say and mock them when they say it? Not I, sir. Not I.

</rant>

[BrotherLovesDub]

alright, i'll bite. i read the article and it's not a diss piece on UW. p.s. is clearly wrong about STITI but he does make some good points. i'll start with the bullshit and work up to the good stuff.

Sherburne calls UW a "brand" early on and i haven't got a clue what he means. more than anything, i think this shows he's ignorant of how UW operate. does he even know about Tomato? Clear case of bullshit.

P.S. says Karl's statement on RA wasn't convincing. How well does he know Karl? Why wasn't it convincing? I was convinced. I don't think Karl Hyde is in the game of deceiving interviewers to sound more respectable. The RA interview was great, but it didn't help with Sherburne's preplanned thesis on his UW piece, so he said he didn't believe the quote. Lazy and self serving.

The thesis of this piece could have easily been: UW once were on top of the world (dubno/trainspotting etc) but are now satisfied with a much quieter existence, happy to experiment and do things their own way with no regard for sales figures, the antithesis of a "brand". Sherburne off the mark again.

Then he quotes an idiot: "Their polarizing abilities are evident in the comment from an eMusic subscriber who complains about the site's categorization of their iconic album Second Toughest in the Infants as house and techno: "Do you need help classifying music? This is not house. This is ambient."
- why quote an idiot P.S.? cuz only an idiot would agree with your preplanned thesis? if you put weight on a statement from a retarded moron who thinks STITI is ambient, then you're a fucking tool, even duller than once thought.

The single most ridiculous and heinous part of Sherburne's piece was this chestnut: "Second Toughest feels more like a cut-and-paste job, a collage of pieces that don't really have anything to do with one another. "Confusion the Waitress" is the only track that retains the restraint of the earlier album; the rest feels either frantic ("Pearls Girl") or affectedly slack ("Stagger")."
- no comment necessary. this is so laughable we don't need to list the hundreds of reasons he's wrong. clueless coked up asshole, should have been my quote earlier.

Now for the good bit. He concludes pretty much on target:

"With the benefit of a whole lot of hindsight, A Hundred Days Off sounds less like the contractual obligation of a group past its prime and more like the blueprint for what could be the best work of Underworld's career. With a lightness of touch you don't often hear in main-stage techno, the album reclaims the balance of Dubnobass and redefines the terms for any "take 'em or leave 'em" scenario. With a new album reportedly due by the end of the year, let's hope Underworld's low profile continues to prove as inspiring as their fall from grace did"


this leads me to believe Sherburne is really a fan, but a fan who had to write a specific word count and couldn't be bothered to do a decent article. he does get UW, but his view of STITI is ignorant and offensive.

[Eikman]

get a life, people

[BeautifulBurnout]

get a life, people

agent provocateur :p

[mmm skyscraper]

I find it interesting that he mentions the riverrun stuff, but has he even listened to it? There's a whole bunch of new music to talk about and we end up with a reviews of albums that have been out for a while. AHDO is not a pointer to the future, riverrun and the latest live stuff is.

[Eikman]

agent provocateur :p

in the time you (and others) wrote all that stuff you could've done much more useful things. seriously, i have some essays due in january....wanna write them for me?

[BeautifulBurnout]

i'm serious. in the time you (and others) wrote all that stuff you could've done much better things.
.... watched telly, played scrabble, ate mince pies (again) chatted online. boxing day is bloody boring! I like something to make my brain work when I am on holiday. :D

I find it interesting that he mentions the riverrun stuff, but has he even listened to it? There's a whole bunch of new music to talk about and we end up with a reviews of albums that have been out for a while. AHDO is not a pointer to the future, riverrun and the latest live stuff is.

Excellent point. Which goes back to my theory about lack of knowledge and/or research. Lazy journalism imo.

[Eikman]

bla bla bla

[dubman]

So what you are effectively saying is that the people who cannot argue with the same intellectual capacities as you have no voice here, without risking ridicule from the elite few who happen to have an excellent education and above-average argument skills? Jesus, this is a music forum, not the College debating union. It is not about form, it is about substance. If one constantly ignores the substance to criticise the form from ones elitist ivory tower... stopped reading
substance, what?
where?

[BeautifulBurnout]

substance, what?
where?

Show me the substance in Kid Cue's first two posts, then we have the substance of a discussion.

Q.E.D

[kid cue]

Self-styled, snug intellectuals with their "holier than thou", self-mastubatory rhetoric and critique of those less etc etc etc. this is such a straw-man argument it's actually (just mildly) depressing. 'Ivory Tower'? i am talking about being willing to accept a given piece of writing as intelligent and worth engaging on its own terms, without bashing its use of vocabulary, or cringing at the possibility of overanalysis. this is hardly Derrida or Zizek (neither of whom i have even read). this is the basis of a discussion!

the great irony of your (self-styled, snug, holier-than-thou) rant is that it's as much a knee-jerk reaction against fictional people ("me", Philip Sherburne), whose one goal in life is to look & feel smart, as are the lamest knee-jerk reactions against an article like Sherburne's. you are embodying exactly what i am criticizing! this is the #1 thing preventing people from having a real discussion on this forum! and then you tell me i'm not capable of having one, as if it's only a valid serious discussion in your eyes if i'm some kind of mild-mannered, pandering, colloquial girl-next-door!

it says a lot about how the tone of the forum has shifted, when 3/4 of the most interesting & popular threads on dirty.org (before you were here) used to be based on hotheaded arguments (serious ones, but ones that you would no doubt frown upon), and now it's always "duckie is a big bad troll, up to his usual antics again". come aahhhn!

there was no ha-ha-ing, either. you like to think you're good at seeing what's really going on, don't you? that what's really happening is that duckie is thinking "ha ha what a bunch of morans!!!!!!!!!" to himself instead of thinking "god wtf !@!$@$!$!!!!" and yet i've clearly never expressed any sentiment but the latter (that being, frustration).

i wouldn't be frustrated if this forum actually were populated solely by people who work in McDonalds (in which case i suppose i'd understand any lack of, i dunno, stimulation--but isn't that itself elitist? and yet it's the basis of your rant), but i'm fairly certain that everyone here is capable--if not willing--to have a discussion "of substance".

(i'm going to skip the confusing treatment of "form" vs. "substance".)

what you're doing, is by forcibly accepting all and trying to understand and adapt to everyone character, is encouraging stultifying, non-critical conversation that repress things like heatedness and your interpretation of "negative vibes" simply for what? someone's ego? because dirty is such a safe haven that peoples bad argument skills shouldnt be pointed out and their ignorance ignored? this forum isnt going to shit because a few people viciously argue about something. it goes to shit when no one here has a reason past unfocused anger or bleeding positivity. the glue you're talking about is a fairly loose one and it implies that just because you like underworld that you're a voice worth hearing around here. i cant think of many members that contradict that (well, i can, but this isnt the place) but the logic is flawed, not to mention self-insulating.

[BrotherLovesDub]

can we just get into a heated discussion please? i layed out my issues with the article. tell me how i'm wrong. or agree with me. let's discuss UW's shift from Festival Headliners to artsy autuers. anything. something. please.

[kid cue]

P.S. says Karl's statement on RA wasn't convincing. How well does he know Karl? Why wasn't it convincing? I was convinced. I don't think Karl Hyde is in the game of deceiving interviewers to sound more respectable. The RA interview was great, but it didn't help with Sherburne's preplanned thesis on his UW piece, so he said he didn't believe the quote. Lazy and self serving.
i think he was saying that Karl was probably trying to preserve the image of the band, avoiding an image of 'falling from grace' or whatever. i don't agree or disagree, but it's true that Karl is almost always the spokesperson for the group, and he definitely does tend spin things in a very PR-friendly way (i hope he's not reading this!).

[kid cue]

can we just get into a heated discussion please? i layed out my issues with the article. tell me how i'm wrong. or agree with me. let's discuss UW's shift from Festival Headliners to artsy autuers. anything. something. please.
i still disagree w/ you about AHDO. what about it makes it quintessential UW? how come Sherburne is suddenly an UW fan who 'gets' UW just because he likes that album?

to me AHDO is much more a case of UW self-consciously consolidating what defines their sound, rather than channeling anything fundamental about them.

his praise of AHDO also seems to be based on how much it resembles the minimal he's into, not how Underworld it is.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I have no desire for you to be either mild-mannered, pandering or girl-next-door. What bugs me about, in particular, your second post here is that instead of adding anything intelligent to the discussion, as Dubman did, you chose instead to criticise the other posters. You seem to be gifted in bringing a discussion down to personal attack with amazing ease.

As I said hours ago, if you want to sneer at people it is up to you. Just don't expect me to sit here and be a "pandering girl-next-door" and not call you out on it.

Or are you the only one who has the right to criticise other posters here?

Live by the sword...

[kid cue]

god you just go in circles. is that a personal attack? oh god, i'm sorry.

[BeautifulBurnout]

god you just go in circles. is that a personal attack? oh god, i'm sorry.

... whereas you just go off at a tangent when someone calls you out, in an attempt to justify why it was you mocked people for not responding in the manner you consider to be a correct treatment of the subject matter (although you knew very well, as you have said yourself, that you would provoke precisely the kind of response you did from a number of the members here by posting the article in the first place).

Backpedal all you like, mate. :)

[BrotherLovesDub]

Karl as spokesperson, check. Karl as positive voice for UW, check. I don't think Karl was trying to paint a turd gold. I think he is truly satisfied with the position and status of UW in 2006. They have more freedom now to do as they please. Mixmag charts and airplay don't mean shit to them now. Something that should be celebrated, in my opinion, not derided. If they had made another club choon, cries of Sell-Out would be bouncing around these hollow forums. They are clearly enjoying what they do and they have at least 6 great tracks in the bag for the next LP. They've released what, 3 hours of experimental ambient music online and done 2 soundtracks. They just played a wonderful EU mini-tour with gorgeous visuals from Tomato and a record breaking Webcast. Karl's positive slant comes from.....POSITIVITY. He's clearly happy with where UW are and i'm also thrilled at the direction they've taken. Dubno is my fav LP of theirs and I wasn't in love with any of the RRP's, but i'm very satisfied that at this stage in their career they're making music to make themselves happy, not worrying about sales or labels and generally making themselves and their fans happy.

Why didn't Sherburne mention the recent remixes? I'd wager a tenner he didn't have the 12" remixes that were put out this year. In fact, i'd be willing to bet he didn't have all the RRP's or the B&E soundtrack. In other words, he's speaking about shit he knows nothing about.

[kid cue]

... whereas you just go off at a tangent when someone calls you out, in an attempt to justify why it was you mocked people for not responding in the manner you consider to be a correct treatment of the subject matter (although you knew very well, as you have said yourself, that you would provoke precisely the kind of response you did from a number of the members here by posting the article in the first place).

Backpedal all you like, mate. :) who is snug here? i picture you as a marsupial, trying to stuff the entirety of the internets into your front-mounted furry pocket.

i did predict a negative response. negativity is fine! lame, reactionary negativity is not.

what you perceive as 'backpedaling': i actually make an effort to address your apparently unassailable criticisms of my behavior on your own terms. apparently, the more words i write, the more quickly i write myself into the pre-fab template you've created for me.

obviously this is a dead-end cycle, so i'll say "you're lame and boring" and you'll say "i'm smug and mean" and we'll call it a day. god, i've had you on ignore ever since i re-registered, but just had to see your post when i got signed off. how about you do the same for me, and save yourself a lot of time? and you don't have to wish me a happy birthday, either!

[BeautifulBurnout]

obviously this is a dead-end cycle, so i'll say "you're lame and boring" and you'll say "i'm smug and mean" and we'll call it a day. god, i've had you on ignore ever since i re-registered, but just had to see your post when i got signed off. how about you do the same for me, and save yourself a lot of time? and you don't have to wish me a happy birthday, either!

Funniest. Post. Evah! :D:D:D

[BrotherLovesDub]

i still disagree w/ you about AHDO. what about it makes it quintessential UW? how come Sherburne is suddenly an UW fan who 'gets' UW just because he likes that album?

to me AHDO is much more a case of UW self-consciously consolidating what defines their sound, rather than channeling anything fundamental about them.

his praise of AHDO also seems to be based on how much it resembles the minimal he's into, not how Underworld it is.

ok, i don't think AHDO is "quintessential UW", but i do think it's a great LP. i prefer it to BF as an album, but the big tunes on BF are better. i think AHDO does illustrate the maturity of the group and their willingness to experiment and shed the shackles of their most popular work. it's an album that doesn't jump out and grab you, but rather rewards you with repeat listens. That's why Sherburne relates it to minimal. You don't hear the beauty on the surface, but rather in between notes, in the silence, in the actual sounds chosen and the superficial simpicity in their arrangement. I think Trim and Luetin are some of the best UW songs ever. Twist is gorgeous but really shines live when Karl adds the magical guitar.

You say AHDO is UW "self-consciously consolidating what defines their sound, rather than channeling anything fundamental about them" and I take issue with this point too.

I completely disagree with you on this point. I just don't see R+K sitting down and trying to sound like UW. I don't think anything can come out of Rick Smith that isn't a distillation of what we recognize as the UW sound. Isn't the first 60 seconds of AHDO classic UW? The intro to Mo Move, up to that reverse beat before the kicks hit...that's classic UW, or in your words, "fundamental" UW. I don't want another STITI or Dubno. I already have 3 LPs and countless remixes by UW that I love. I don't need my fav. artists to continue to progress but UW are doing it for themselves now and I repsect that much more than I would a rehash of any of their previous work.

[kid cue]

Why didn't Sherburne mention the recent remixes? I'd wager a tenner he didn't have the 12" remixes that were put out this year. In fact, i'd be willing to bet he didn't have all the RRP's or the B&E soundtrack. In other words, he's speaking about shit he knows nothing about.
he was just talking about the albums! sure, he (like all music writers) has a tendency to make absolute, all-encompassing arguments, but he's expressing the perspective of a dance music fan who knows UW about as well as the average dance music fan. why is the only valid criticism/interpretation of UW that of someone who has all their !2"s, digital releases, graphic design books, and all their other side projects? it seems like the definition of fanboyism IMO. you don't have to understand the band inside out in order to say something valid.

(not that i'm agreeing with him per se)

[BrotherLovesDub]

One man's fanboy, is another man's fan. I'm not offended by the fanboy label but I do think a mention of the current remixes would have been a worthy inclusion. Afterall, they had some of the best minimal talent remix the last batch of tracks and they're quite good. Why not mention that as a sign post for the future? I think his ability to make a valid argument is significantly harmed by his brief dismissal of an entire album (STITI) and his failure to mention their very good remix series just out. He mentioned Riverrun, but not the remixes. I think it shows he's not current with his UW knowledge. That doesn't mean he can't comment, but it does detract from his conclusion. I think he has more knowledge about UW than the average fan and I think his critique was mostly accurate. He doesn't need a "fanboy" level of knowledge to add validity to his comments, but he should at least be familiar with their most recent work.

Btw, what is your stance here? So far you've refused to take a side.

[stimpee]

duckie/kid cue: thanks for posting the article in the first place. its certainly caused some creative writing here. i dont believe that you were just trolling either. You did say "sure to inspire ire" and also "not that I agree with him either" which means what it says. I do agree that your opinion on the piece might have been useful but thats never stopped people before from just posting links.

and to stick to the topic, i dont agree with this guy's ramblings either. he has clearly got it wrong about STITI. he's off the mark about BF too. But he's close to the mark on his comments about DNBWMHM and AHDO. Does that make him a good journalist? going on this piece i'd say not but i haven't either read anything of his or even heard of this guy before so i don't know. what i dont get is that he's not mentioned anything post-AHDO except for the fact that the B&E album has been released. the article looks like it could have been written in 2002.

Am i fence sitting? probably. But i'm not gonna get into petty fighting :p

[stimpee]

I think Trim and Luetin are some of the best UW songs ever.best songs on the album. i will give you very good time. indeed.

[jose m]

i have followed underworld from the very early days and i find the review very interesting.well posted thank you.

[patrick]

duckie/kid cue: thanks for posting the article in the first place. its certainly caused some creative writing here. i dont believe that you were just trolling either. You did say "sure to inspire ire" and also "not that I agree with him either" which means what it says. I do agree that your opinion on the piece might have been useful but thats never stopped people before from just posting links.

and to stick to the topic, i dont agree with this guy's ramblings either. he has clearly got it wrong about STITI. he's off the mark about BF too. But he's close to the mark on his comments about DNBWMHM and AHDO. Does that make him a good journalist? going on this piece i'd say not but i haven't either read anything of his or even heard of this guy before so i don't know. what i dont get is that he's not mentioned anything post-AHDO except for the fact that the B&E album has been released. the article looks like it could have been written in 2002.

Am i fence sitting? probably. But i'm not gonna get into petty fighting :p
exactly what i was thinking stimp. If he only wants to include proper albumns, then why the heck is he writing an article now. according to him and his albumn only perpective, they haven't done anything in 4 years... how can he say some of these things without including what they have been doing lately as it is turning a blind eye to some sort of progression (of the band).

Anyhow, I am super glad this discussion came around and it got kid cue posting more again. It's what I miss about the old incarnation of this thing. I never thought you were trolling or doing anything wrong. The people at the start were definatly posting silly trash talking responses, without substance.

Also: it makes sense for him not to introduce his views right away. He for one doens't want to influence other peoples views, and would argue the middle ground either way to promote the discussion rather than it disapearing right away if everyone agreed... He doesn't have to have a view if he can at least SEE where the articles points are coming from...

know?

[adam]

KiD CUE IS DUCKIE?!?!?!?!1

[BeautifulBurnout]

well , i can't see the problem ! (with the article)
i hav'nt read all the posts here (cause it is so boring = personal calling etc)
but am i dreaming or does he brings a question about
the kind of audience / big size and the music you will create ?
as if you 've got in mind (before actually start an album) "well we / i have to play festivals (biggest one) so we have to make music for it"
of course i am not clear and articulate and blablabla but this subject is a very interesting one !
as an artist i will be very sad to be that much constrained to such external factor (where i will play)
but if you think of it twice , sometimes artists are/were commissioned ( just think of the tate modern museum ) but here with music it will be not by someone outside but yourself ( your idea about your audience)
well your own definition about who you are as a musician

well well well i will stop now and think of it just for myself

Good questions. And I think, (imo of course), that is is pretty safe to say that, while the band, under the control of their record label, were obliged to take these things into consideration for commercial reasons, the purpose of the Riverrun Project has been to shed those shackles and release the kind of music that comes from their soul, not from some label's wallet.

In this, they still manage sellout gigs, which, in itself, is a barometer of their popularity. OK, it goes without saying that Nuxx is still the choon that gets the wildest crowd response, but having attended 5 gigs over the last 18 months, I can testify to the fact that new material is as popular with the crowds as any of the older, more established numbers.

They still have it. There has been a shift in their style, but they still have the pulling power to fill the halls and the fields. And I maintain that Mr Sherburne, for all his popularity "the other side of the pond", has kind of missed the point by apparently ignoring the recent releases, and is judging the band by what he percieves to be past failures and successes in his opinion as a minimal techno fetishist, (not that I have anything against minimal - on the contrary), and is not comparing like with like, but like with what he would like.

[adam]

1) I kind of lost interest in Underworld as of AHDO, personally. It may not reflect much on the music, but on my changing tastes, but I just don't find that album terribly engaging. It is so safe...however, hearing Trim live in the Peel sessions really changed my opinion on that song (for the better), so I will happily grant that there may be more to the album than I have an interest in looking for. I've heard none of the Riverrun stuff because I don't trust any of you fanboys' opinions on it enough to want to pay for it. No offense, but you're all stupid jerks.

2) Duckie's comment was spot-on. King of Snake posted a non-comment: it didn't offer anything whatsoever to the discussion about the article, which anybody here, regardless of their education, should be able to do. That is, whether you agree with it or not, you should be able to form those thoughts into coherent statements: who the fuck, why should we care, yeah, totally, whatever statements serve no function. Duckie was calling him out on that. Duckie offered an article for discussion. He wouldn't have cared if people disagreed with it, but the response he got was the equivalent of making farting noises with your armpit, and I don't think he's out of line for pointing that out as precisely what it is.

3) The idea that Duckie should have voiced that criticism is a nicer fashion is one that I understand the reasoning behind, but that I don't wholeheartedly agree with. The problem being that this isn't real life. Years ago, I would have argued with that, and said, "Of course it's real life! How could it be anything else?" The thing is, I think, in real life, we should be as nice to each other as we can manage (with all types of qualifications that are tangental). But the thing is, here, in this artificial, world-spanning discussion forum, adopting those tactics makes the forums worthless. It is the only control mechanism we have. Unfortunately, I seem to be at the limits of my ability to articulate this idea. I'll have to think about it more.

I guess I'll make an immediate attempt to illustrate my point one other way. Imagine that we were sitting in a cafe, discussing this piece of music criticism (because we're intellectual snobs). Now, imagine somebody overheard us, and came over, and offered his two cents in the manner of "Who the fuck is this? Why the fuck should I care? Whatever, man." This is what we have, in the forums, is an artificial environment in which any one who wants to participate in a discussion feels free to do so. But if that's what they're bringing to the table, they better be prepared to be called on it. The notion you're presenting, BB, that we should just all nod our heads and stroke our chins at that outburst out of respect is really kind of odd, to me. You're objecting to Kid Duck's tone, I think, more than what he was saying, but, that fictional person in the cafe chose to walk up and participate, and chose to participate in that fashion.

I think the environment of the internet makes someone presenting their opinion in that fashion much more likely (than the equivalent cafe example), and, that precise increased likelihood in turn increases the need for an emphatic response (calling bullshit). Regardless, if this were to happen to me in a cafe, I certainly wouldn't mince words in telling someone what I thought of their contribution.

Anyway, I've argued with Duck Q myself, and his criticism of my arguments has changed the way I think about things, a bit, though it made me mad at the time, so I for one am all for it.

And, lastly, King of Snake, I'm sorry to pick on you repeatedly in this example. I'm trying to comment more on BB and Cuekie's exchange than anything you said. I think your comment wasn't useful, certainly, but there's no value in beating that dead horse.

[viddy]

It's Duckie, you'll never be right and he'll always be smarter than you! ;)

[Tom]

Hay guys wats up?

[BeautifulBurnout]

Adam: While I can see where you are coming from, in your cafe analogy, KoS isn't "someone overhearing" but (as a prolific poster to the forum) is part of the group sitting round having the discussion. If Duckie had said "KoS, you point of view is crap because actually what Sherburne is saying is XYZ and you have to admit that there is some cogent argument in there" there wouldn't have been an issue, afaiac.

What he actually said, to bring it down to the lowest common denominator, is: "KoS - (and he singled KoS out for particular criticism, and not for the first time, from a multitude of short, knee-jerk responses, my own included) - Sherburn is awesome, he has opened for Michael Meyer and he writes a lot about techno, so that makes him worthy of respect, and you are dork for not realising that."

Maybe I am just too much of a hippy, maybe I am so old that I have learnt that you don't attract flies with vinegar, I dunno. But imo Duckie's response at this stage was just as daft as anyone elses. And with the (little) knowledge I have gleaned as a result of his past posts in his previous incarnation, it is evident that he is considerably more articulate and intelligent than to just base his response on something so shallow. Unless he was playing "flush the fanboy" for his own amusement and that of others.

I may be conpletely wrong, and I apologise if I am. But I will maintain my position that, if someone is obliged to resort to personal attack, they have lost the argument.

Let's argue about the content, not the people participating in the argument. :)

[adam]

Flush the Fanboy doesn't come out until 3rd quarter 2007. Rumour is PS3 only, but we know how that's been going.

[Tom]

What he actually said, to bring it down to the lowest common denominator, is: "KoS Sherburn is awesome, he has opened for Michael Meyer and he writes a lot about techno, so that makes him worthy of respect, and you are dork for not realising that."

What.

Maybe I am just too much of a hippy

...

:)

:)

[BeautifulBurnout]

OK!

So I am a bloody hippy!

Wanna make something of it?

(/me takes her jacket off and opens the door) :D

(Edit: And anyway, I saw Michael Meyer in Frankfurt in October and HE was fucking awesome, and he had Tobias Thomas opening for him who was 30 gzillion times more awesome than Sherburn who suxx0rz)

[BrotherLovesDub]

i've gone back and deleted my posts not on the subject of the article. it would be nice if the others would do the same and let's cut the cancer out of this thread and just focus on the content of the article. I feel like there are more important issues left to discuss re: UW in the year 2006.

How would the RRP's be perceived if they had been released under Mr. and Mrs. Christmas or some other pseudonym? Would the reaction be different if the artist name wasn't Underworld?

I don't believe Underworld have written tunes for a festival crowd since BF and i'd be surprised to know they actually cared when recording the tunes what they would sound like in front of 20K fans. With the exception of the AHDO gigs, UW change things up live and improvise, as we all know and love, so i don't think an album version gets crafted to suit a festival.

Am I a fan boy if I bought all the RRP's, barely listened to them, but want to support a couple guys doing something for the fans (releasing stuff on the cheap or free that would othewise go unreleased, making music to please themselves and still pushing the boundaries of their sound, having a semi-close relationship with the fans website and fan base in general? Well, if i am what you call a fanboy, so be it. I couldn't think of a nicer band to be fawning over. So what if I think their best ablum was released 13 years ago? I am happy to see them enjoying this stage of their career and respect the risks they've taken releasing ambient material digitally. The Breaking and Entering Soundtrack is gorgeous, btw. It's and ambient film score adn should be listened to with that in mind, but it's beautiful and evocative.

Or, I can just hop on the constantly changing Bandwagon of hipster music and bitch about UW for not writing Jumbo pt. 2 or another Born Slippy. Ultimately, the music you love when you're 16-25 is the music that will mean the most to you when you're 45. What Underworld have done since my fav. lp, Dubno, is not nearly as important to me as who they've become. I respect them as people and artists and look forward to hearing anything they decide to release. I may not always love it (see RRP, BF, half of AHDO) but i'll always have time to give it a chance.

That sentiment is where a review like Sherburne's doesn't reach. It is for the casual fan, but written from a voice of someone who is very familiar with their work. I believe Sherburne's knowledge of Underworld ends in 2002, precisely when the minimal techno trend started catching on worldwide. I don't believe he has the RRP's, the remixes, the Tokyo CD's or the inspiring Lemonworld shows or Cocoon set. Those things mark the direction of Underworld, not the album cuts on AHDO.

Along the same lines as the RRP's coming out under a pseudonym, if journalists would stop calling UW a techno act, the expectation of floorfillers and anthems would dissolve. UW are electronic musicians pursuing a different path to the one that made them famous. Not easy to do and pretty damn scary if you're used to earning a certain amount of money. I'd say, it's pretty damn repsectable too.

Has anyone seen Duckie? Wouldn't mind his opinion on the state of UW and the content of Sherburne's review.

[BeautifulBurnout]

i've gone back and deleted my posts not on the subject of the article. it would be nice if the others would do the same and let's cut the cancer out of this thread and just focus on the content of the article.

I would.

But then it would make the thread so boring, dahling :p

/me paints her nails

[adam]

Sorry, BLD, if your, "Am I fanboy if..." comments refer to what I was saying, I meant it to be tongue in cheek and not taken at face value. What I meant, I guess, is that the droves of threads dissecting the minutiae of every official or semi-official release have left me unable and uninclined to try and sift through for information I find actually valuable.

I meant to buy Riverrun; at the age you're describing they were one of my favorite acts, and so I wouldn't "write them off" because I had less interest in a single album. I think it more has to do with my tastes drifting from their aesthetic than a matter of their output becoming less satisfactory. I just never got around to buying any of it, and it's still far down my priority list.

I don't think I can agree with your comments about how you to relate to the music you liked when you were 16-25. I'm just outside of that age now (29), so maybe I'm too close to see the effect you're predicting, but I find I don't really relate to most of the stuff I liked at that age. Every once in a while I throw on some for nostalgia's sake, and I can rarely make it through an album, despite the fact that some of that stuff meant the world to me.

BB, that isn't at all what Duckie was saying. Not in the slightest degree. I'm surprised that that is your honest interpretation.

(edit: that's weird, when I edit my post that weird character in the first word isnt' there...)

[kid cue]

(kid duck...!)

no, of course i wasn't saying X person is 100% totally uncool for not knowing that minimal techno DJ Philip Sherburne opened for Michael Mayer. believe me when i say that i don't even like all things minimal/house/techno enough to care about that.

it was supposed to answer to this idea that he's just another out-of-touch journalist. far from it. it's pretty clear, if you're not trying to find reasons to lynch a troll.

and re: adam's first post in this thread, yeah ... i think i agree with his assessment of message boards. i hadn't thought of it like that. another, more concise way to describe the problem with this thread is: you can't have a genuinely critical, serious (!) discussion of any subject if you're also not willing to be critical about the way people discuss that subject. people jumping on any of these comments as being "personal attacks" is nothing but reactionary and short-sighted.

the irony just piles on when we are (theoretically) disallowed from doing this, and all you're left with is this fatalistic idea that everyone occupies a different intellectual plane, and the solution is for everyone on a supposedly 'higher' plane to step down to the lower ones, and dumb everything down for everybody's benefit (?). which must be why this misguided theory naturally concludes that anyone who refuses to do so must be some kind of elitist.

meta-criticisms are inherently provocative, and it's the semi-systematic witch hunt of provocative statements on this forum (when the hell did that start, anyway?) that's made it such a drastically less stimulating version of what it was. just one opinion though.

these threads make me think of activist parents hounding the game, music, and film industries to 'tone down the violence'. i basically stopped posting here (along with, i suspect, certain others) when it started to feel like soccer moms and their kids were brandishing pitchforks behind picket fences on their impeccable lawns. the atmosphere is thin and the people are thinning out too.

"we don't want no trouble from your kind here. this is a nice town. we like to keep it that way."

that's my very last word in my own defense and about forum culture, ever. i swear. i won't make an effort to defend myself in the future because i'm getting weary of having to stave off the neighborhood watch.

i'd immediately follow with an equally long post about UW, but i have to think it over for a while because i haven't listened to STITI in forever.

[adam]

you can't have a genuinely critical, serious (!) discussion of any subject if you're also not willing to be critical about the way people discuss that subject.

Much better than my semi-lucid rambling.

[kid cue]

as a tangent to the current UW discussion, i'm ambivalent about the concept of UW stepping away from the limelight, and using unconventional, more fluid ways to get releases out. if online releases are an ideal medium for Rick & Karl's rate of output, so be it--but ... given that the releases are only made available on underworldlive.com (and publicized on dirty's front page), which is a fairly esoteric website that only long-term / die-hard UW fans are going to check with any regularity, and that their premise is for Rick to experiment wildly with production & structure, it seems like sort of a critic-proof outlet. which is bad, IMO, because it suggests that a lot more chaff is likely to make it through (drastically more experimenting, zero timelines or barriers to release), and the response (from UWlive-goers) will never be anything less than basically positive. (i was so hyped for the first RR project, but i haven't really listened to it much. i heard Pizza For Eggs was good though ...)

not that there isn't any quality control from their end. but the group completely overhauled their sound (and visuals) in between MKI-Dubno-STITI-BF, and i feel like it was the largeness of each new release, the pressure of having to do it again with a significant album release, that helped that progression. UW seem like a quintessential album group in that regard.

but there was, always, the threat/anticipation of criticism from the larger public that must've helped shape each new album into something great. that was my point.

i guess i won't see it as an issue if the next album draws from all these side projects and is totally fresh.

[BrotherLovesDub]

as a tangent to the current UW discussion, i'm ambivalent about the concept of UW stepping away from the limelight, and using unconventional, more fluid ways to get releases out. if online releases are an ideal medium for Rick & Karl's rate of output, so be it--but ... given that the releases are only made available on underworldlive.com (and publicized on dirty's front page), which is a fairly esoteric website that only long-term / die-hard UW fans are going to check with any regularity, and that their premise is for Rick to experiment wildly with production & structure, it seems like sort of a critic-proof outlet. which is bad, IMO, because it suggests that a lot more chaff is likely to make it through (zero timelines or barriers to release), and the response (from UWlive-goers) will never be anything less than basically positive.

not that there isn't any quality control from their end. but the group completely overhauled their sound (and visuals) in between MKI-Dubno-STITI-BF, and i feel like it was the largeness of each new release, the pressure of having to do it again with a significant album release, that helped that progression. UW seem like a quintessential album group in that regard.

i guess i won't see it as an issue if the next album draws from all these side projects and is totally fresh.


the River Run Project was the end result of karl mentioning they had tons of ambient material that wasn't right for a proper album. at the time, the majority of dirty.org was frothing at the mouth to get their mitts on those ambient tracks (zOMG Thing In A Book pt.2???). they were done without much fuss and at a very reasonable price. a perfect outlet for them to express a different side.

Underworld have, by my estimation, 5 great songs that haven't been released but have been evolving in the live setting for a year or two. We'll see if they actually release those tracks or if they remain unpublished. This will be the first LP with Darren Price too, and if his contributions to the live set on the past tour is any indication, this next LP is going to sound very current while retaining that classic UW sensibility (Can You Feel This Bass).

I agree with Duckies comments above w/r/t the progression from Dubno-BF and each release getting larger etc., however, it's my belief that Underworld are happy to not be caught in that cycle. They've done that bit, now they're onto something else. Their goals have changed, if my understanding of their public comments in the last few years is on point. If you're expecting an epic masterpiece on par with STITI, or joyous anthems that reach the heights of Jumbo, or even deep classics like Dark and Long, you're probably waiting under the wrong tree. That fruit won't fall again. If you're intrigued with the sound of All These Things, Always Loved A Film, Globe, JAL To Tokyo etc., 2007 should yield at least a handful of tasty nuggets. In the end, our top 10 UW tracks will largely be compiled from the first 3 LPs. 1,2,5? more great tracks from the band is all I really hope for, the rest, as they say, is gravy.

[kid cue]

i'm all for UW getting out of a creative cycle that isn't doing it anymore! as a usually frustrated, down-on-myself artist i can completely understand the never-ending search for a working process that ... works.

i don't really understand why you're only expecting a small handful of classic tracks from the rest of the band's career, though. are you just talking about the age thing? or is it about their moving away from big-ass stadium raves (?) ...

[BrotherLovesDub]

i say that because i don't expect any artist to put out classic material for more than 10 years. i suppose i'm using new order as an example deep down. after their peak with Technique, they have put out the odd classic here and there, but never reached that peak again in album form. i don't expect Underworld to ever match STITI. who could?

as for their working process. i'd say it's working better than ever. it's just that what they're getting out of that process isn't to your liking now.

ultimately, how much can you expect from any artist? electronic artists rarely put together more than 2 lp's of quality material before their sound is passe. after that, they either experiment and lose their fanbase, stay the same and hear complaints of treading water and rehashing old ideas or adopt the current hot trend. *wouldn't mind hearing an UW dubstep mix, tbh*

[BeautifulBurnout]

My final word on "personal attack", (anti)-intellectualism and elitism, then I am out.

1. It isn't about dumbing down. It is about whether one wants to be able to communicate at every level in a manner that is comprehensible to all, or whether one wishes to communicate only on one's own "higher" level, and openly derides anyone they perceive as incapable of engaging in/with that level of discourse.

2. When putting forward one's argument, however intellectual or otherwise, it needs to be robust enough to stand on its own two feet. One can, of course, criticise the way in which an opposing voice postulates their point, but once that becomes the sole point of focus, the relevance of one's substantive argument is lost and the whole dicussion just degenerates into mud-slinging.

3. The person slinging the first clump of mud cannot, in all reasonableness, start whining when mud is slung back at them.

4. Nobody died and made me Queen of the Innernetz. I have the right to say what I like, as does anyone around here, and people have the right to take on board what I say, agree with me, disagree with me, point at me and laugh or put me on ignore. To suggest that people like me (whoever they may be, cos I haven't come across anyone else quite like me on these boards) are causing people to leave Dirty is, seemingly, vesting "us" with a great deal of power. Careful, cos that might just go to my head and I will begin to believe that I am actually a powerful person! ;)

5. One final word. I still maintain that Sherburn's article was lazy, rehashed, sloppy journalism. I am not going to pull it apart sentence by sentence and justify that because I can't be bothered.



Disclaimer: All of the above is personal opinion. It is not intended to establish any kind of rules of behaviour in this forum. I am just a simple poster, not a mod or an admin. If I have an opinion on something I reserve the right to voice it on the same basis as any other poster on these boards. (see para 4 heretofore). If I don't have an opinion, I will STFU and go and do something else.
;)

[Dirty0900]

Underworld themselves dont want to churn out the same kind of stuff. Look at Sola Sistim, that was originally a lot harder sounding but it got altered when it was pointed out at JBO that it was like Moaner number 2. Im glad UW have the balls to experiment with different genres.

[patrick]

i say that because i don't expect any artist to put out classic material for more than 10 years. i suppose i'm using new order as an example deep down. after their peak with Technique, they have put out the odd classic here and there, but never reached that peak again in album form. i don't expect Underworld to ever match STITI. who could?

as for their working process. i'd say it's working better than ever. it's just that what they're getting out of that process isn't to your liking now.

ultimately, how much can you expect from any artist? electronic artists rarely put together more than 2 lp's of quality material before their sound is passe. after that, they either experiment and lose their fanbase, stay the same and hear complaints of treading water and rehashing old ideas or adopt the current hot trend. *wouldn't mind hearing an UW dubstep mix, tbh*
well a counter point to this is that i am 24 and i don't know new orders old stuff as good as their new stuff. i was exposed to their new stuff first/more (other than the 5 or so common classics). I think their last 2 albumns are the best, even now, that i have had exposure to a lot of their earlier albumns...

bands don't have to go out of the lime-light after 10 years/2 albumns, it depends on the band totally. i think UW has the potential, but that is putting things in ricks head that i want... plus hearing the latest stuff like luetin and always loved a film and you do scribble... those are probably 3 of my favorite 5 uw songs of all time, but i didn't get the rr projects at all. i listened to them a few times each before they disapeared in my life...

however, i agree with BLD that they have these gold mines hiding and the next LP has big potential...



also: kid cue and duckie are anagrams or whatever they are called...

also: kid cue is a way cooler name cause of "cueing"

[potatobroth]

I've said before that I would be shocked if UW were to release more than 1 (tops 2) of those developing tracks on a new proper release. Songs like Biro the Leggy, Always Loved a Film and the others won't be 'new' at the time of release. In the case of Biro, this is a track that didn't make the cut for AHDO and that was 5 years ago. There is no worse way to stunt your progression than to take 5 year old, unreleased tracks, and call them new. I think its great for the live setting but for an album, not so great.

As for the RR releases, at least they are fresh. I've eagerly anticipated each one, purchased it, but never listened more than a handful of times to each. Each one has 1 or 2 good things going for it, and it worth the purchase but just doesn't hold my attention; JAL is one of my favorite tracks though - especially in live sets such as Electraglide.

I'm anticipating a new album that is a mix of the more completed track-style RR's and the usual format of 2 banging, 2 ambient, 4 in-between tracks.

[King of Snake]

well a counter point to this is that i am 24 and i don't know new orders old stuff as good as their new stuff. i was exposed to their new stuff first/more (other than the 5 or so common classics). I think their last 2 albumns are the best, even now, that i have had exposure to a lot of their earlier albumns...


I was gonna say the same thing. I think NO's last album was great and not can hold it's own against most of the older stuff. I too only got into NO quite recently so I don't have the same emotional realtion to the earlier stuff that someone might have that grew up with those songs.
Same for Underworld, hearing STITI for the first time was a revelation to me and it just clicked with the point I was at in my life and the feelings and emotions I had. So that will always be the "best" album. But as the article illustrates, someone like Sherburne who probably did not have the kind of relation to that album actually thinks it's the weakest! So who's right? Obviously no one, he's as entitled to his opinion as I am, although I disagree with the argumentation he uses.
If the first album of UW someone would hear now was AHDO, they may have a lesser opinion of the other albums, or at least they won't have the added experience of listening to the old stuff to influence their opinion.

btw I realise my first reaction in the thread came across as kinda knee-jerk, but I didn't mean to imply "omg this guy is slagging off UW, what a dick! Everything they do is amazing!" or anything like that. I just thought it sounded like he was pulling out all kinds of arguments and assumptions that didn't make much sense from my point of view and trying to draw parralels with other music instead of taking it at face value. As a general evaluation of UW's career and their future direction it was inadequately researched by disregarding anything they've done since AHDO in 2002, making his conclusions pretty pointless. (anyway this all has been said more clearly and eloquently by others in this thread)

[Sean]

It just keeps on going and going and going, huh? Impressive thread! ;)

Anyway, I've never read anything else by this guy, but I'm inclined to think that he's a bit full of it. He seems to be offering nothing more than his personal opinions and taste in music as some sort of proof of Underworld's success or lack thereof. Commercial success is, of course, easy to track, but his analysis of individual songs and albums seems to be a purely subjective attempt at outlining their artistic success as well. Personally, I feel basically the opposite of how he does. While I loved Dubnobass in it's day, it has dropped to my least favorite of the Underworld LP's while BF has remained at #1 for many years. And Second Toughest is a great album in my opinion, in large part because of phenomenal tracks like Pearl's Girl, not in spite of them as he seems to think. As for AHDO, it does seem like a transition album to me, but I personally see it as a step down from their preceding albums, and the Riverrun series as an artistic step back up to form.

It's just one reviewer's opinion, and it doesn't figure one iota into how I feel about Underworld and the music they make. As long as they keep making more, I'm happy. :D

[holden]

He seems to be offering nothing more than his personal opinions and taste in music as some sort of proof of Underworld's success or lack thereof. Commercial success is, of course, easy to track, but his analysis of individual songs and albums seems to be a purely subjective attempt at outlining their artistic success as well. ...

It's just one reviewer's opinion, and it doesn't figure one iota into how I feel about Underworld and the music they make. As long as they keep making more, I'm happy. :D

You said it, sir!
I re-read this article and it's telling that the phrase "sounds like" and "seems to" are used a lot. Purely opinion, as most criticism is, although he probably has listened to more tracks from the LPs than most reviewers do.
"With the benefit of a whole lot of hindsight"...sure! I don't agree with his reassessment of Dubno as "accidental" or STITI as boring or thin on ideas. Maybe a decade or more on, they don't have the freshness of sound, but i think each LP and Beacoup Fish included, generated considerable excitement upon release. This reassessment is akin to saying Sgt Pepper or The Wall could've been better or had too many unfinished ideas. Whatever! But at least he has at least a better than average understanding of the band's history and electronic music in general as a dj or producer.

Good discussion generator nonetheless. But like Sean said above, it doesn't bother me what he thinks or anyone else about the band. At least the reviewer tries (maybe unsuccessfully) to support his case. The sales as indicator of relevance is a dirty trick, especiaqlly for the U.S., since electronic doesn't sell well here in general (except maybe Moby or Fatboy) and in all cases less than in the late 90's electronica craze.
i actually prefer UW to be more underground and niche than the dance juggernaut they were poised to become in the mid 90's. If the people buying and listening are liking what they hear, the band is doing something right. When folks on the dirty forums are unsatisfied, then perhaps the gears need oiled. That's clearly not the case.

[kid cue]

as for their working process. i'd say it's working better than ever. it's just that what they're getting out of that process isn't to your liking now. by 'getting out of a process that doesn't work' i meant the album-to-album thing, not this online release thing. i'm down with the online releases if it works for them, even if i'm not so into the music.

*wouldn't mind hearing an UW dubstep mix, tbh* !!!

Underworld themselves dont want to churn out the same kind of stuff. i thought this was why lots of people weren't into AHDO. Dinosaur Adventure 3D was King of Snake part deux, yeah? and, er ... i guess that was the only glaring rehash.

...was Beaucoup Fish really a big deal when it was released?

also, i don't understand this constant need to emphasize that the article is full of 'just' the author's opinions. one minute people are saying this makes the article useless, the next minute it's that he's trying too hard to make his opinions sound definitive, when they should clearly just be his opinions. it's like you're trying to find a reason to discount the value of criticism or something.

[holden]

...was Beaucoup Fish really a big deal when it was released?
It was. The buzz was palpable. I'm also pretty sure that it was a successful record! ;)
...
also, i don't understand this constant need to emphasize that the article is full of 'just' the author's opinions. one minute people are saying this makes the article useless, the next minute it's that he's trying too hard to make his opinions sound definitive, when they should clearly just be his opinions. it's like you're trying to find a reason to discount the value of criticism or something.
That's our opinion and we're entitled to it! :p
He raised points worth discussing, and that's a significant value of critiquing. Another value is what i was alluding to in my post above: If UW are doing something wrong, the real fans will let them know right here. Sherburne seems to feel their career has been a mixed bag, but his argument runs out of steam because he doesn't substantiate with facts other than quoting sales figures as a measure of musical worth and "proof" of a fall from grace. Naming tracks that work or don't isn't a compelling argument. Tell us why!

If i can quote him freely, tell me how this is constructive:
"In retrospect, though, Dubnobass begins to look something like an accident: a band-in-transition nailing the sweet spot purely by chance." - but that's all he has to say on this. Purely his opinion, unsupported.

"Second Toughest feels more like a cut-and-paste job, a collage of pieces that don't really have anything to do with one another. "Confusion the Waitress" is the only track that retains the restraint of the earlier album" - but he just praised Dubno for being better than the sum of its parts and drawing on various genres. And since when is the mark of a successful album whether the songs relate with one another? To me, STITI sounds very restrained and taught, but i'd have to give you a lot of words on why to explain. Sherburne doesn't, so i let his statement drop.

"...the album's big singles — "Push Upstairs," "King of Snake," "Moaner" — clang uncomfortably, exercises in strident excess" - what's unconfortable? The drumm pattern? The lyrics? The melody? What's excessive?

"Reduced to facilitating the indefinite buildup of adrenaline and the unbridled release of serotonin, the group ends up flailing in its very pursuit of transcendence" - unless he was in Underworld, this statement has no weight because he cannot possibly know what their intent or situation was.

"At Underworld's worst, it seems to be aping the noxious monotony of the burgeoning progressive house scene — piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents, the music in lockstep with the crowd's drug experience" -- blahhhh. Sez him, obviously not into that scene! Even playing Born Slippy to a festival audience off their ass on whatever, UW has never constructed a song like he claims.

Now, in fairness, when discussing AHDO, at least he mentions musical elements:
"The swirling keyboards, conga and standup bass of "Twist" shows that Hyde and Smith still remember how to create a space of sonic possibility, as overdriven guitar and increasingly frantic Latin percussion turn a somber meditation into a smoldering workout. "Trim" is a fetching little fusion of blues guitar and 808"
but even there, it's couched in broad terms, comparisons, name dropping and buzz adjectives that so often pass as being well educated and "getting it" in music reviews.

So yeah, a nice lil discussion-generator, but not without some coaxing from around these parts!

[stimpee]

KiD CUE IS DUCKIE?!?!?!?!1
i agree with everyone here. you're all correct.

but what i was thinking though is that maybe duckie decided to call himself 'kid cue' because an anagram of 'tribal duckie' is 'kid lubricant' :p

i'll get me coat.

[patrick]

i agree with everyone here. you're all correct.

but what i was thinking though is that maybe duckie decided to call himself 'kid cue' because an anagram of 'tribal duckie' is 'kid lubricant' :p

i'll get me coat.
WOW!!! that musta taken some time!

[kid cue]

errgh i was feeling the short version of yr post, but this...!

If i can quote him freely, tell me how this is constructive:
"In retrospect, though, Dubnobass begins to look something like an accident: a band-in-transition nailing the sweet spot purely by chance." - but that's all he has to say on this. Purely his opinion, unsupported. Sherburne justifies his idea that Dubno was a fluke by talking about why he doesn't think the next two albums are as good. and, he clearly goes on in that same paragraph to describe what was good about Dubno (elaborating on the already lucid descriptions in the preceding paragraph) and lacking in STITI:

"Second Toughest feels more like a cut-and-paste job, a collage of pieces that don't really have anything to do with one another. "Confusion the Waitress" is the only track that retains the restraint of the earlier album" - but he just praised Dubno for being better than the sum of its parts and drawing on various genres. And since when is the mark of a successful album whether the songs relate with one another? To me, STITI sounds very restrained and taught, but i'd have to give you a lot of words on why to explain. Sherburne doesn't, so i let his statement drop. i also would've liked to hear more about why he thinks STITI grasps at straws. this is the weakest part of the article IMO. still, your criticism doesn't read him correctly: he was saying that the individual tracks on Dubno each add up to more than their multiple influences, not that the album itself is more than its individual tracks. and, praising Dubno for drawing on various genres doesn't mean that he can't criticize STITI for doing the same, less successfully. he's saying that the tracks seem to jump around, to more extremes, and also don't sound unified as an album, implying that UW were trying to incorporate lots of different influences for the sake of doing so--or that they simply took on more than they could handle.

"...the album's big singles — "Push Upstairs," "King of Snake," "Moaner" — clang uncomfortably, exercises in strident excess" - what's unconfortable? The drumm pattern? The lyrics? The melody? What's excessive? this is probably his minimal bias speaking, but i thought these comments made enough sense in the article, given that they follow his comments on how atmosphere and restraint were key successes on the past LPs. and i don't see why he has to go into detail on what specific instruments he doesn't like: it's perfectly feasible to take these statements at face value, given that he's spent the last two paragraphs talking about what he DOES like about UW's music.

i maintain that if this were some other band, people wouldn't feel the need to hold up every last sentence to this level of dissection. it's easy enough to see the broad curve of his argument, and IMO there are enough justifications for it. i think the most viable criticism that's been brought up is that he doesn't talk about any of the recent work (although i feel like the the remixes and online releases would only reinforce his closing statements.)

"Reduced to facilitating the indefinite buildup of adrenaline and the unbridled release of serotonin, the group ends up flailing in its very pursuit of transcendence" - unless he was in Underworld, this statement has no weight because he cannot possibly know what their intent or situation was. NO criticism can presume to "know" what any artist's intent was. the point of ALL criticism is to present arguments, ways of thinking, about the work in front of us, from a single perspective, that other people can agree or disagree with. is that not the nature of how audiences interpret art? the rest of the article leads naturally to the conclusions you quoted. and the preceding sentence ("Listening, it's easy to envision Underworld as a casualty of its own success: a main-stage act grown accustomed to playing enormous, amphetamine-fueled festival crowds, where altitude becomes not a luxury but an imperative.") makes it rather clear that this is conjecture--which the reader can either choose to buy or ignore.

"At Underworld's worst, it seems to be aping the noxious monotony of the burgeoning progressive house scene — piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents, the music in lockstep with the crowd's drug experience" -- blahhhh. Sez him, obviously not into that scene! Even playing Born Slippy to a festival audience off their ass on whatever, UW has never constructed a song like he claims. you don't think UW live performances use piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents? are you kidding??

Now, in fairness, when discussing AHDO, at least he mentions musical elements:
"The swirling keyboards, conga and standup bass of "Twist" shows that Hyde and Smith still remember how to create a space of sonic possibility, as overdriven guitar and increasingly frantic Latin percussion turn a somber meditation into a smoldering workout. "Trim" is a fetching little fusion of blues guitar and 808"
but even there, it's couched in broad terms, comparisons, name dropping and buzz adjectives that so often pass as being well educated and "getting it" in music reviews. it's written broadly for a general audience, not the UW connoisseur. and again, i highly doubt this author is trying to prove that he knows a lot. these don't seem any different from music writing at large: there are only so many different ways to say you like a piece of music.

[dubman]

er yeah.
i absolutely love underworld live and all, but hearing a collage for every snare roll they pull would be as funny as the caruso one-liners for CSI miami.
they're all over the place and a pretty definitive part of their live shows.

[stimpee]

you don't think UW live performances use piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents? are you kidding??i certainly dont... ive seen them almost 20 times live and as a contributor to rtsr i've heard a lot of bootlegs too. they go through lots of musical styles, sometimes with long improvised jams and other times with short and punchy singles. It depends on whether youre seeing them at a festival or not I suppose.

Its possible to criticise a band for making all their songs sounding too samey on an album or and also criticise them for too many musical styles. These are Sherburne's opinions and he's entitled to them. I disagree with them as is my wont. I would say that we have heard the albums and the songs more than Sherburne has and we know them better than he does.

I'm wondering why he has chosen now to write about Underworld. Since AHDO they have diversified a lot and experimented much more. If you thought AHDO was Underworld going through the motions then what has happened since is a backlash to that. Now that UW are free agents they have been able to explore what they want to do, releasing 4 online EPs, a live album and (soon to be) 2 soundtracks.given that the releases are only made available on underworldlive.com (and publicized on dirty's front page), which is a fairly esoteric website that only long-term / die-hard UW fans are going to check with any regularity, and that their premise is for Rick to experiment wildly with production & structure, it seems like sort of a critic-proof outlet.I can see where youre coming from with this, but the releases have been given a big online push and every online dance music website and print magazine have given these releases column inches. Also, the releases were not only made available via Underworldlive.com but remixed on 12" available in the shops internationally and via iTunes/beatport etc.

Obviously this wont get the coverage that a CD album would get because they are not available on CD in your average shop but things are changing and its hard for dance artists to get shelf space in the big CD stores and small independents are feeling the squeeze due to the purchasing power of giants like Wal-Mart.

Anyway, just my tuppence worth, for what its worth.

[Sean]

you don't think UW live performances use piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents? are you kidding??There's REZ, but generally speaking, they've pretty successfully avoided the Norman Cooke school of music, and instead deliver a pretty broad variety of approaches to their tracks, both on their albums and live. Certainly nothing I'd ever define as "piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents". Do you have specific examples in mind that I could check out?

[kid cue]

maybe i'm just projecting, but i remember hearing a lot of snare rolls (in the background, at the very least) the one time i saw UW live, and it did feel like a series of endless ascents. i always assumed that snare rolls were just another way that Rick would improvise. i think this is getting beside the original point, though, which was that the raveyness in UW music draws on a certain prog-house feel, which i can buy. (on the other hand, i wasn't on drugs at that show, so maybe the argument falls flat, since it was distinctly better than anything prog.)

[dubman]

i dont keeps a lot of bootlegs on this thing because theres about 40 of them and they would take a LOT of room, but they're fairly frequent so i just popped on KOS from creamfields and found that they use it four times in the space opf a minute, along with the requisite cymbal crashing.
dude come on. its in every concert if not every other song and it's there in EE.

[kid cue]

I would say that we have heard the albums and the songs more than Sherburne has and we know them better than he does. this is the only thing that really irks me, this idea that anyone can have the last word because they, ultimately, can pull more knowledge out about the band than the harried critic. not that you're doing this, but i have this image of an UW fan skeptically reading Sherburne's complaints about STITI's awkwardly pieced together-ness or BF's lack of restraint, being instantly able to pull out two examples in which STITI flows quite smoothly and three in which BF shows distinct restraint, each example referenced down to the minute and second ... and for that reason instantly, systematically being able to discount every one of his negative statements about Underworld. the idea that anything bad can be quickly disproved by a true UW expert's infinite knowledge database.
it's just a subtext that i'm reading in a lot of posts.

[dubman]

wait, do you mean that they use these examples to assert themselves as a better authority to discount the rest of the article? or is your issue with people using that method to disprove that particular point?

because it seems like a valid way to directly contradict those particular points.

[kid cue]

i guess i'm saying that when people posit themselves as experts who 'know more' about the music/subject in question than the critic, then the critic will never ever be able to say anything convincing (unless they allow themselves to be convinced). the people who 'know more' will always be able to unearth some esoteric facts that will somehow disprove each individual point making up the critic's argument, thus dismantling the argument--even if the complete thesis broadly makes sense. forest vs. trees, etc. look at this little debate about the snare rolls, which in dialogue form would be

PS: "UW draw from prog house's big room excesses, what with their uplifting snare rolls and buildups. at the height of their popularity, this chasing of rave mentalism sounded increasingly contrived on the albums"

dirty: "WRONG!!!!11 only one track in UW's entire oeuvre uses snare rolls"

also, tribal duckie does not spell kid lubricant :mad:

[Sean]

i dont keeps a lot of bootlegs on this thing because theres about 40 of them and they would take a LOT of room, but they're fairly frequent so i just popped on KOS from creamfields and found that they use it four times in the space opf a minute, along with the requisite cymbal crashing.
dude come on. its in every concert if not every other song and it's there in EE.I should be more specific. The particular comment made in the article, saying that Underworld uses "piled up snare rolls and endless ascents" implies to me that this Sherburne fella is saying they depend on these techniques to successfully deliver their music. I find that to be inaccurate. I'm listening to live stuff as I write this, and the outstanding elements of their music to me are the melodies, complex and/or driving drum beats, vocals, and overall energy. Yes, there are snare rolls in certain songs, and others reach a notable crescendo, but what live show of just about any style doesn't utilize similar techniques to bring more energy to the performance? "Goddam Led Zeppelin with their endless guitar and drum solos" :rolleyes: . Yeah, they used guitar and drum solos, but they were there to support an already awesome song, not there for a mediocre song to lean on in order to be successful. I think that for it to be a valid criticism, they would need to be using it on the level of a Fatboy Slim or something. Criticising Underworld for snare rolls and ascents, to me, is like saying "they're flailing around up there because they insist on doing all their shows to a 'dance' beat". "Um...okay. You do know they make dance music, right?" If you listen to any Underworld show, you hear an impressively diverse array of feels and musical approaches from song to song, yet all deliver that unique Underworld sound and energy....but the success of the shows has never seemed to be dependent on simplistic tricks like "piled up snare rolls and endless ascents", it's always been dependent on well made and performed music. So overall, I'd say again that Sherburne's critique is primarily dependent on subjective tastes rather than any kind of objective facts. There is some literal accuracy to the specific comment, but the intended point of the it seems to be pretty far off base to me.

[kid cue]

the exact quote is "At Underworld's worst, it seems to be aping the noxious monotony of the burgeoning progressive house scene — piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents, the music in lockstep with the crowd's drug experience". this says nothing about a complete dependence on the technique, or the band's capacity for "well made and performed music"; merely that sometimes, they get too PROG house.

believe me, i still adore Underworld and seeing them live that one time made me cry. but i do think you're overrating their diversity, and your counter-argument to the 'snare rolls' comment, that UW simply make really good music, hardly puts them above any of the criticisms in the article.

[stimpee]

Well, i've already said that I disagree with the prognosis given and thats that. This guy aint the messiah, he's a journalist. He's got a point of view and i disagree, simple as that.

[change]

also, tribal duckie does not spell kid lubricant :mad:
I have a feeling that this was a bad time to jump into reading this post. :)

[Sean]

the exact quote is "At Underworld's worst, it seems to be aping the noxious monotony of the burgeoning progressive house scene — piled-up snare rolls and endless ascents, the music in lockstep with the crowd's drug experience". this says nothing about a complete dependence on the technique, or the band's capacity for "well made and performed music"; merely that sometimes, they get too PROG house.Yeah....I read the whole thing. But having seen them perform live to support each new album since the mid-90's, I never saw that happen myself. And regardless, arguing that they get "too PROG house" from time to time is still a subjective argument, which is my entire point about his article.

believe me, i still adore Underworld and seeing them live that one time made me cry. but i do think you're overrating their diversity, and your counter-argument to the 'snare rolls' comment, that UW simply make really good music, hardly puts them above any of the criticisms in the article. I don't think I'm overrating the diversity. Listen to The Chemical Brothers, or Daft Punk, or any of the other big names from the group of big electronic acts coming out of the 90's, and find me as broad a variety of tracks as what Underworld put out. Moaner, to River of Bass, to Pearl's Girl, to Skym, to Bruce Lee, to Luetin, to Blueski, and on and on. This isn't because I'm a fan of Underworld....I love all kinds of music....they just undeniably deliver a broad range of tracks, which I personally find to be a defining characteristic of their music.

As for the counter-argument, yeah....actually it is an effective counter-argument. When somebady is trying hard to prove that Underworld was "grasping at straws" and that they depend on simplistic tricks like the whole snare roll thing, they're completely ignoring that the music is made up of far more than that. Objectively speaking, Underworld makes quality music. Because he simply doesn't care for it, which is his right, doesn't mean it's not quality. If he wrote his article in a subjective way, I'd have no problem with it. But he's trying to push his opinions as objective fact, which is a major flaw. I mean hell, I think Justin Timberlake is a tool who i hate listening to, but I can acknowledge that there's quality in some of his music.

[BeautifulBurnout]

maybe i'm just projecting, but i remember hearing a lot of snare rolls (in the background, at the very least) the one time i saw UW live, and it did feel like a series of endless ascents.

I rest my case, M'lud

[mmm skyscraper]

There is no worse way to stunt your progression than to take 5 year old, unreleased tracks, and call them new.

I wouldn't mind a 12" of Mofo b/w Laughing Tortoise.

[kid cue]

Sean if you're free, please tell me how it's possible for a critic to a) construct an argument about musical quality that isn't ultimately subjective, and b) convey to you that he's NOT trying to pass off said argument as 'objective fact' without inserting an IMO after every other sentence.

[kid cue]

As for the counter-argument, yeah....actually it is an effective counter-argument. When somebady is trying hard to prove that Underworld was "grasping at straws" and that they depend on simplistic tricks like the whole snare roll thing, they're completely ignoring that the music is made up of far more than that. Objectively speaking, Underworld makes quality music. Because he simply doesn't care for it, which is his right, doesn't mean it's not quality. If he wrote his article in a subjective way, I'd have no problem with it. But he's trying to push his opinions as objective fact, which is a major flaw. I mean hell, I think Justin Timberlake is a tool who i hate listening to, but I can acknowledge that there's quality in some of his music.
this is just ...

Objectively speaking, Underworld makes quality music.
WHAT? look, i said pages ago that i didn't agree with the whole article, but ... what?

[Sean]

Sean if you're free, please tell me how it's possible for a critic to a) construct an argument about musical quality that isn't ultimately subjective, and b) convey to you that he's NOT trying to pass off said argument as 'objective fact' without inserting an IMO after every other sentence.He presents his review as an objective study of thir artistic and commercial success. It's not....plain and simple.

[Sean]

this is just ...


WHAT? look, i said pages ago that i didn't agree with the whole article, but ... what?Tori Amos has great control of her voice. I don't care for her songs, but she does. Rick Smith has a solid grasp of song construction. Are you unaware that there can be recognition of quality in art without personally being a fan of it?

[kid cue]

are you unaware that the recognition of "quality in art" does not directly correlate to an objective diagnosis of "quality art"?

that "Rick Smith has a solid grasp of song construction" does not equate to
Objectively speaking, Underworld makes quality music. (which should probably serve as the official dirty.org motto)

[adam]

He presents his review as an objective study of thir artistic and commercial success. It's not....plain and simple.

So you're saying the complexity of his argument suggests to you that he's presenting it as "objective" whereas if it were simpler it would qualify as "subjective"?

[kid cue]

i think he was saying that it's "plain and simple" that the article isn't objective. that sentence as a response to the article is kinda like when i ask the lady at the asian grocery store how much the pears cost, and she says "yes! tasty."

[adam]

Oh, okay. That makes more sense than my interpretation.

[Sean]

Good lord. Freakin' nevermind. This is a useless debate. It's a poor review that's erroniously structured as objective fact, when clearly the content is not. Okay?

[jose m]

i checked out the writer out of interest.seems he's a bit of a "minor" face on the techno scence and invented the term "mirco house".likes lots of djs and records i also like and that goes some way to make me understand where he's coming from.lots of my friends don't like underworld that much,they are generally the ones that are dj/producer ibiza/berlin/richie/villalobos clubheads,i like them and their scene but i also like gigs,live bands and dance music in a "bigger" sense.i think that underworld do split opinion in the dance world but thats good for me.

[holden]

i checked out the writer out of interest.seems he's a bit of a "minor" face on the techno scence and invented the term "mirco house".likes lots of djs and records i also like and that goes some way to make me understand where he's coming from.lots of my friends don't like underworld that much,they are generally the ones that are dj/producer ibiza/berlin/richie/villalobos clubheads,i like them and their scene but i also like gigs,live bands and dance music in a "bigger" sense.i think that underworld do split opinion in the dance world but thats good for me.

Amen to that!
For every fan there is a detractor.
For every criticism there is a defense.

Debating every word written and every response, every nuance of meaning, and ultimately projecting our own opinions on someone else's may be entertaining for a while, say a few pages, but it will never end the healthy split of opinion.

[crank]

I think everyone is just bored and antsy for the release of the new material.