my thoughts on the releases

[//\/\/]

at the moment i'm precluded from "ownership" due to my home pc being busted.

i have a copy that a friend sent me out of the blue.

i only really listen to music in my car.

when my pc is up and running i will be able to buy the tunes.

i will only listen to them on a cd i burn for myself.

whilst in the past, even if i had a copy of an album i wanted on tape, i'd go out and buy it - there's an ownership issue here. now - i don't feel quite to inclined. there's not much extra bang for my buck, is there?

as an artistic experiment, i understand them wanting to do something different. as a commercial one, it seems flawed. yes, it's getting product out at a fantastic rate, without bullshit from record companies. but as far as how it's being received at our end, i'm worried. there's an element of "emperor's new clothes" about the round/square nature product up until now - but for the reasons that many people feel, i don't feel the same way about these tunes as i do about any of my uw cds. they're files. i've got no real emotional attachment to them. i got sent a copy of the files that is no worse than one i'd pay for - where's my motivation to buy if i can't even get into the shop, and even when i do, i come out with nothing new?:(

[jose m]

sounds like you're looking for something to fill a space in your life,some sort of emotional attachment,why not get a dog?

[Stephen]

I thought that was quite funny actually.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Must be an age thing mate. ;)

Seriously, though - and all comment on the quality of the choons aside, which will always be a personal preference - while I can absolutely see where you are coming from on this, have you ever wondered if it is because either:

a) we are tied to CDs as being the only "valuable" format because of their very physical nature - you pay for a physical thing therefore it has more instrinsic value than something that comes out of the ether; or
b) you are so used now to getting free *cough* music in this format that it has somehow devalued the concept for you?

And, all joking apart, the age thing is not as daft as it sounds. I resisted buying a CD player for quite some time as, having witnessed the rise and fall of such things as laserdiscs, I figured it was a new geeky bit of tat that would eventually lose its charm and fade away. I eventually (thankfully) bought in to it. Perhaps the whole idea of MP3s as The Medium now just takes a little getting used to?


Food for thought. (Especially with all the Pizza, Eggs and Penne flying around :p)

BTW: on a side note, I paid for an extra copy of P4E to send to someone as a christmas present. Was I daft to do that, having already bought it? Maybe. Did it make me feel better having done it that way? Without a doubt. Otherwise my present would have had no value at all to me.

[//\/\/]

b) you are so used now to getting free *cough* music in this format that it has somehow devalued the concept for you?

if i was stealing tracks left, right and centre, then that'd be a valid point. but i'm not... that fact that technology has allowed a friend to send an exact replica of what i would have paid for takes this beyond the days of taping an album for a friend. and as i've said, i'm precluded from being able to pay; so i either listen to my copy, or fuck-off and don't listen to new tracks.

And, all joking apart, the age thing is not as daft as it sounds. I resisted buying a CD player for quite some time as, having witnessed the rise and fall of such things as laserdiscs, I figured it was a new geeky bit of tat that would eventually lose its charm and fade away. I eventually (thankfully) bought in to it. Perhaps the whole idea of MP3s as The Medium now just takes a little getting used to?


yes; it's a new medium - i'm just questioning whether this is the best way to sell it - especially when, as you point out, it's a medium that has been the domain of piracy from the word "go" my honest thought was that i'm more inclined to not pay for something from uw that i'd hitherto be straight into hmv to get my grubby mitts on. if they're talking about concepts about the shape of the music they sell, i'm talking concepts of how i approach it - and without something sitting at home, i'm more inclined to rely on my copy. that's how the experiment affects me, somebody who's very up for buying uw product.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I wasn't for a minute casting aspersions on people who download music. That's a personal choice too.

And very true - as a medium it is a pirate's dream (me hearties ;) ). But wasnt the same true of the first cassette recorders? Jeez, when I was a teenager my saturday job money would pay for an album a week and a few cokes at the Youth Club disco if I was lucky. So everyone taped everyone elses records, and the ones we really really loved we bought with our hard-earned slave-wage cash.

In that respect I don't think much has changed other than the wider availability through P2P applications. In other words, you don't need to ask all your classmates who has got the album now. But other than that, nothing much has changed in my view.

[//\/\/]

my point is, that in the dayes of tape, you still had the option, eventually, to go out and buy the record - and you'd make sure you had the record, as you've said. a tape wasn't the same. with p2p, you had the option to go out and buy the cd - i only use p2p if i've got the cd, or the track isn't released. even then, the burned cd is lacking as a physical thing. with these releases, there's no extra option, you end up with the same thing, paid-for or not.

[jose m]

" fuck off" only trying to help,you sounded so upset? underworld let you down the bastards ! i know how it feels to be let down by them also,i'm on your side.

[//\/\/]

sounded mighty sarcy to me - but i've been up since 5.30...

i'm not upset about uw, and i don't feel like i've been let down in any way. i was just reflecting on how and why this way of releasing things has made me less inclined to buy the music. if this is a commercial experiment, then i see people like me as being a negative side of it for the reasons i've outlined. as a consumer, i just find the concept well-meaning, but also flawed...

(if i was pissed-off with them then i'd keep schtum and pirate the lot of it...)

[jose m]

agreed,english isn't my first language so i get a bit confused with grammer?

[//\/\/]

insult retracted, handshake offered! :)

[stimpee]

I think all of us here given the choice would like to buy a physical CD/DVD/vinyl product. I like the fact that we get the photos with comments from Karl which is good stuff and we get some sort of artwork to go with it but its not the same.

I too like my Underworld to come on a shiny disc with an inlay in a box. There are ways in which this distribution method can be seen as a positive step forward:

1) it gets the music to the fans quickly (sidestepping middlemen/shops)
2) it allows for things such as photos to be bundled (admittedly you could do that with CD/DVD but not with vinyl)
3) its a far cheaper method as there is no physical storage medium cost, only bandwidth cost (which the £5 more than covers)
4) youre not limited to the lengths of vinyl/cd (i.e. 80mins per CD, much less for vinyl)

However, I see negative points about this as apart from the first one, in which the time thing is negligable anyway, the other points seem to benefit the distributors and not the consumers. The negative points I'm seeing from this (some are fixable) are:

1) fans want holdable product
2) they want separate tracks they can shuffle around/skip to
3) they want the highest possible quality
4) they want artwork and tracklistings

Apart from the holdable product thing, and to a certain extent the artwork thing, these can be solved in the future, even with downloads. For the separate tracks I've had to make my own CUE files and chop the files up without losing quality which brings me to the third point. 192kbps mp3's are good quality and the average user can't tell the difference but no matter what, the fact does stand that it is of poorer quality than CD and that can't be denied so it is a step backwards. UW do offer artwork but its not really complete. Its not full cover/inlay CD size ready to print with full tracklisting and timings. I've had to modify it and extract it from the PDF myself and make my own. Not an ideal solution.

So, what is the solution? Well, we all know that this is an ongoing experiment and maybe in the future they will listen to us and offer some alternatives or (in our eyes) improvements. You can't sidestep the holdable product thing unless you burn your own cd, but if you do you could also offer CUE files for people who want to burn to cd, you could offer fuller printable artwork for front and back covers (and cd?) and also offer the audio in a lossless format. Would that make people feel better? quite possibly. It wouldnt be the same as getting it in a shop but you would have your own CD that you made (of course, requiring cd burner and printer).

I think the band have to find a way to make digital product feel more personal. A difficult task but maybe the above solutions in the long run are the answer. For now, having Underworld product that I have modified and printed the artwork, split the tracks and burned to CD is OK for me but it does take up a lot of my time to do this.

As an additional note about people wanting to split the tracks up (me included), why didnt we want to split up Juanita/Kiteless/To Dream Of Love, Banstyle/Sappys Curry or Shudder/King Of Snake? After all, Juanita, Banstyle and King Of Snake were split off when they were released/remixed on singles.

Until then //\/\/, why not get a dog? ;)

[Jan]

That pretty much sums it up!

[potatobroth]

As an additional note about people wanting to split the tracks up (me included), why didnt we want to split up Juanita/Kiteless/To Dream Of Love, Banstyle/Sappys Curry or Shudder/King Of Snake? After all, Juanita, Banstyle and King Of Snake were split off when they were released/remixed on singles.

because Banstyle/Sappys feels like one track, with a similar feel throughout. If you were in the mood for one, you were in the mood for both. for all intents, Sappys, IS one track. and shudder (the most fast-forwarded 45secs of any underworld CD i own) is too short to give a damn about. i hated that Shudder was attached to KoS and made a few posts about that back in the day.

when i listen to RRP, i 1) dont always wanna listen to 25min and 2) am not always in the mood to hear Peggy Sussed when i want to listen to Lenny Penne.

[undarrenworld]

Yes I agree with Stimpee.
I can add, that vinyl release is still something special.
Im sure that you know what Im talking about...

Save the vinyl;)

[bryantm3]

i feel exactly the same way. having a 'file' doesn't feel like you've bought a new record. it's just not the same.

[big screen satellite]

i'm with ian on this (and also stimpee)...

especially, being the superfan i am, holding product is what its all about....so what if you own 5000 mp3 tracks of underworld, thats bollocks...(it didn't take me long to acquire the entire KLF back cat on mp3, including super rare tracks, but it kinda feels 'hollow' owning these on my computer, to actually owning the physical product...if i had the actual vinyl i'd feel sorta more complete inside....

...i know its about the music, in the end and i'm all for people getting to hear the music in any format, but actually owning the stuff sorta makes it feel right...just look at the growth in the sales of 7" vinyl in 2005... a fan based medium that you can hold...indie kids are leading the way again, but they are also creating the buzz with downloads...look at the artic monkeys for example....so its a double edged sword...

sadly the rise in vinyl sales (up 87%) pales into significance against sales of 'legal' downloads...up 743% over the past year (also makes you wonder how much illegal downloads have increased)

anyway...we know for sure that with Underworld there will be physical product coming this year (2006), as Karl has already hinted at, and Steve at JBO has confirmed to me that he is working on several vinyl releases of remixes of the 'pizza' and 'lovely' tracks (which, i expect also to appear on cd...being as i already own a couple of promos of new stuff....)

anyhow ian don't fret, i'm with you, these 'improvs' are a bit 'strange' but you'll be able to buy something this year for sure...start queing at HMV soon....

lets hope we are notified by someone official rather than having to read it on Channel 4 text....

[BeautifulBurnout]

Bah! Luddites! ;)

[Liam]

I thought that the boys released this stuff on download only basically because they wouldn't be able to release it any other way. There are a lot of restrictions, qualatative and quantatative, when releasing something traditionally, and quite frankly I don't think that these releases would sell all that well on CD or vinyl (and I'm sure that there's be loads of complaints up on the boards: not long enough, too self indulgent etc etc). The Riverrun project is an experiment, not a normal release. Rick and Karl have always created masses and masses of music between albums and releases, far more than any of us have heard, and the Riverrun project is a chance for us to see some of this, a chance we have basically never been given before.

In other words, I don't think that there was ever an option between CD or MP3 release, the option was between MP3 or no release at all. Personally, I am more than happy to pay money for this extra insight, money that goes directly to my favourite artist rather than their record company, and I think that it's fairly unnapreciative to complain when you don't like the format.

Seriously, Underworld do more than their fans than any other band I've ever heard of: CDs, vinyl, books, remixes, DVDs, downlaods, concerts, concert recordings and broadcasts, web-broadcasts, radio DJing, tolleration of online trading of live bootlegs, web-books, shoes, posters, dog-tags, iron on T-shirts, a website that is updated daily, the list really does go on and on. Riverrun is yet another example of their diversity, a magical insight into the everyday jamming of Rick and Karl that we simply would not have if it weren't for MP3 release. Can we really complain?

And incase you're still wondering, Karl and Rick pretty much say the same thing in their press release to lovely broken thing:

the idea is to give us the chance to stretch out into areas we have only been able to touch on with traditional album releases......

another aim of changing things is to give us the chance to respond to what's happening musically out there in the world and put an underworld spin on things more than once every three years - like the way things happened in the days of white-labels, selling records from vans and junior boys own....we hope you'll be able to hear this in the music. it will also help us refresh the live set with more new songs in a way we haven't been able to in the past, something we've wanted to do for a long time now.
none of this spells the end of traditional albums, remixes, tours, gigs it's just a way of getting music to you without the help of a multinational every time we feel inspired. expect too see underworld in the charts, on the radio, in the press and in your town again but in the meantime fill you're boots at underworldlive.com (http://www.underworldlive.com/).

[//\/\/]

(if you look at the title of the thread, it's called "thoughts" not "complaints")

is riverrun a way of supporting the boys financially between trad-format releases? that's another thought...

[suicidalpenguin]

In a way i agree with you.
In all honesty i have downloaded a fair bit of music in my time (mixes and radio and live shows rather than albums though) and there is something lacking - many a time i would rather have gone out and gladly paid for 'the finished product'.
I think UW have tried to answer and justify that in the sense that they've provided different things with the releases i.e. covers, listings, credits (and bonus piccies too).

As beautiful burnout has already said - i think it may be partially a case of getting old though, or having to change some of the more fundamental concepts you grew up with.
At the end of the day though - Things always change.
examples (albeit not as drastic as this) being
VHS to DVD
records to tapes (in terms of mainstream usage)
Tapes to CD
Hey, we've all bought the DVD's - now we're gonna have to change them all for HD-DVDs

I think its been a bold move which will undoubtedly lead to many debates similar to this, and it will be interesting how it turns out.

Whether its the right move or not, only time will tell

last thought: when you've got used to downloading, something else is likely to come along :D

[jose m]

i'm sure they don't need the cash from the downloads to keep them afloat,i was told that rick lives in oliver cromwells old house !

[Liam]

I'm sorry for insinuating your complaint. My main point is that I don't think there was ever an option between online and normal release, the option is between online release and no release. R & K may not be strapped for cash but this does not mean that they can plonk anything they like on a CD. They can, however, put anything they like on their website. I for one am very grateful for them having done this.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I'm sorry for insinuating your complaint. My main point is that I don't think there was ever an option between online and normal release, the option is between online release and no release. R & K may not be strapped for cash but this does not mean that they can plonk anything they like on a CD. They can, however, put anything they like on their website. I for one am very grateful for them having done this.

... which has summed it up perfectly for me. :)

[koisk]

I haven't really bought the riverrun eps for some of these same reasons. However, recently getting a new computer with a massive hard drive, removed one big limitation for me, and kind of on a whim I bought 'Pizza for Eggs'.

Listening to the songs while browsing the photo gallery really made this feel personal for me, something that I wasn't expecting. I'm the one that's always saying 'cds aren't the same as mp3s, I like the physical product and the artwork, the case', but with the little extras that came with the release I don't really have that concern. I mean, sometimes you get a CD and the artwork is a single-page liner-notes sheet and simple tracklisting on the back - Nothing special. And becuase I bought the release, and I know the money went to the artist, I feel like it has more worth then some random mp3 I ripped or found online.

So yeah, mabye it sounds cheesy to you, but it kind of changed my perspective of online distribution. Now I'm really looking towards bleep.com and considering buying some stuff off there. I really respect underworldlive and bleep for not applying any sort of DRM to the music.

It also hit me the other day that it's really quite amazing what it allows bands to do - with uwlive there is no pressure for Underworld to be Underworld. If they're kicking some ideas around in the studio, they can jus t release them and avoid the traditional markets all together.

Finally, I have to say I'm really liking them both (I got Lovely Broken Thing soon after), and it's pretty exciting for something so fresh to be coming out of a band who's been around awhile, relatively.

[TomTom]

I don't mind the way of distribution...starting to get used to it and liking the advantages. You can get a track or an album in a heartbeat, no waiting or dealing with uneducated Music Store dealers or other bullshit and it's a great way of releasing something and making a few bucks with it you would never release on CD or Vinyl just because it's too "special" (reads: not mass mainstream or mass underground compatible enough).

But I agree to some of the previous postings as well. MP3 makes buying music less "precious" and unique. I don't mind for the albums/tracks I bought online in various shops but I would NEVER be satisfied with having an mp3 and some .gif files for an artist album or mix compilation I am really looking forward to only. Besides the fact that a mastered CD just sounds better (MP3 Junkies who listen to their music on cheap 50 bucks PC speakers don't count here lol) on a good system, I love the aspects of a CD/DVD...like to smell the fresh printed covers and to open the sleeve and play with the inlays. I agree, I am oldschool here and that´s just me beeing 37 years old and maybe it´s completely different for an 18 year old music fan who didn't buy CD's since decades but buys his dope online or downloads it for free.

I enjoyed both releases though I had to get used to them and I also had to throw away some of the expectations I had to do this lol but I downloaded some excerpts of live sets/unreleased track versions from this site for free so I don't really mind to pay for some more experimental stuff. Still it was a different experience for me...I am a die hard Underworld fan and have every album and most bootlegs/sets, basically whatever was officially/inofficially released. Normally, especially when it´s something that´s officially released, I know about it in advance and wait for the day when it´s out eagerly. Buying the online releases, I read about them on another Forum and had the mp3 15 minutes after that. It´s cool on the one side but makes it less precious on the other side like I said in the beginning. It´s just an emotional link that´s missing here I guess. But I am sure, there will be another Underworld album where I can sniff the fresh ink again lol so I don't really mind as well. Long story, short end: bring them on and don't stop!

[BrotherLovesDub]

"MP3 makes buying music less precious and special"

i'd like to quickly address this statement. i know what you mean when you say that but I disagree with the sentiment. i now only buy releases that are special to me for one reason or another (favorite artist/special packaging/limited editions etc). MP3's have, in a sense, made buying music more special. I used to buy tons of stuff on CD and vinyl then only listen to a fraction of what i bought. There's nothing special about paying 10-15 USD on a 12" with no picture sleeve and only 1 song you can use or enjoy listening to. There's nothing special about buying a new cd you heard was good from a friend or website, only to find out a few songs are good but the rest is shit.

what was special was registering at UWLive, getting access to the members area and getting new music from UW in a way that has allowed them to be more creative and experimental. i'm completely satisfied that the 5 pounds i spent on each release was money well spent and am looking forward to giving UW more of my money for the RiverRun Project. I appreciate the way Underworld are evolving much more than their contemporaries who have all faded into irrelevence.

Bring on 2006, it's shaping up to be the best year for Underworld fans ever.

[stimpee]

TomTom: nice nick. like Tom only twice as good :p (and good first post, welcome!)

BLD: i see your sentiment and I can relate to that. I've got loads of CDs i bought that I wish I hadnt. what a waste of CD/paper/plastic.

Not everyone needs the physical stuff and not everyone needs the highest quality. But if we can't get the physical stuff from the shop then we should be able to get as close as possible ourselves with better quality downloads and print-perfect covers. I hope that will come eventually and satisfy more people. You can't please all of the people all of the time but maybe Underworld can try.

[koisk]

TomTom: nice nick. like Tom only twice as good :p (and good first post, welcome!)

BLD: i see your sentiment and I can relate to that. I've got loads of CDs i bought that I wish I hadnt. what a waste of CD/paper/plastic.

Not everyone needs the physical stuff and not everyone needs the highest quality. But if we can't get the physical stuff from the shop then we should be able to get as close as possible ourselves with better quality downloads and print-perfect covers. I hope that will come eventually and satisfy more people. You can't please all of the people all of the time but maybe Underworld can try.

I think it won't be too long before hard drives are big enough and broadband is cheap enough that you could download wav files - That's what I'd really want. 192 MP3 is the smallest bitrate I like to go. iTunes has thier music at too low of a bit rate imo.

[Jan]

I think it won't be too long before hard drives are big enough and broadband is cheap enough that you could download wav files - That's what I'd really want. 192 MP3 is the smallest bitrate I like to go. iTunes has thier music at too low of a bit rate imo.
Bitrate is irrelevant --> Its Quality that matters.
Because of that i am curious why they didn't encode their music with some decent MP3 encoder (like LAME) that supports VBR.
And WAV is completely unnecessary as lossless codecs (such as FLAC or APE) are available.

[Dirty Canuck]

In my humble opinion......
Underworld is releasing this stuff through their website because the traditional way of releasing music through a record company wouldn't allow it. It's too experimental(read: creative)....
If you don't believe me, consider the fact that Q-Tip has now released two albums deemed unmarketable, and in my opinion is some of the most creative stuff I've heard in the last 10 years (check "Kamaal The Abstract", if you can find it).
I think LBT and PFE are a side of Underworld we might not have seen if it were not for underworldlive.......
We should be thankful that R and K are trying new ways to allow us to hear and feel their music, because in the end it's not about format or sound quality that makes us feel connected to them, it's the music itself.....

[holden]

In my humble opinion......
Underworld is releasing this stuff through their website because the traditional way of releasing music through a record company wouldn't allow it. It's too experimental(read: creative)....
If you don't believe me, consider the fact that Q-Tip has now released two albums deemed unmarketable, and in my opinion is some of the most creative stuff I've heard in the last 10 years (check "Kamaal The Abstract", if you can find it).


Fair enough. Also, lookit what happened with the latest Fiona Apple album. The story was that Sony deemed the sessions unmarketable (or "couldn't hear a single"), but the downloadable leaked version created incredible buzz. The eventual release of the CD version probably wouldn't have happened without the fans making noise on the internet.

Seems like R&K are aware of the buzz and have several times commented on the reaction the RiverRun projects are getting in cyberspace. Cool! My only wish is that we can help build that buzz more. Tell your friends about Underworld!

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

In my humble opinion......
Underworld is releasing this stuff through their website because the traditional way of releasing music through a record company wouldn't allow it. It's too experimental(read: creative)....
If you don't believe me, consider the fact that Q-Tip has now released two albums deemed unmarketable, and in my opinion is some of the most creative stuff I've heard in the last 10 years (check "Kamaal The Abstract", if you can find it).
I think LBT and PFE are a side of Underworld we might not have seen if it were not for underworldlive.......
We should be thankful that R and K are trying new ways to allow us to hear and feel their music, because in the end it's not about format or sound quality that makes us feel connected to them, it's the music itself.....


This is a good point. I recently discovered one of the most whacked out, craziest, and yet strangly addictive albums I've ever heard ("Trout Mask Replica", if you're wondering), and right after listening to, say, the first song, I've always thought...man, they would NEVER release something like that today!

Not that this UW stuff is very experimental, but I do like the idea of bands being able to release music the way they want to, being able to set their own price, and eliminating the middle man...now I do like physical mediums (I like vinyl a lot more than CD though), but digital formats are just so much more efficient, and it really just makes so much more sense for music to be released this way.

[Leon]

If you don't believe me, consider the fact that Q-Tip has now released two albums deemed unmarketable, and in my opinion is some of the most creative stuff I've heard in the last 10 years (check "Kamaal The Abstract", if you can find it).

I'm a big fan of A Tribe Called Quest and I thank you very much for this suggestion!!! Good stuff, thanks!

[LX1V]

"online only" or downloadable releases are the best way to bring such stuff like uw's riverrun project across!

i just wondered what would've happened back in the good old days of freur, if we had internet back then?
i suppose that "get us out of here" would've been a hit not only in fans circles, but also much more widely then!
sadly it never really got the attention that it deserved, which is a shame and also was the end of freur, but also not much later the beginning of uw mk1!

[Leon]

"online only" or downloadable releases are the best way to bring such stuff like uw's riverrun project across!

i just wondered what would've happened back in the good old days of freur, if we had internet back then?
i suppose that "get us out of here" would've been a hit not only in fans circles, but also much more widely then!
sadly it never really got the attention that it deserved, which is a shame and also was the end of freur, but also not much later the beginning of uw mk1!

Hmmm then I'm asking myself the question:

Would I rather see Freur or Underworld headlining festivals? :p

[LX1V]

wouldn't it be absolutely fantastic to see a re-united freur together on a big festival stage doing the "piano song" etc. live in front of an audience that is not even half their age, but going totally wild then!?

;)

[stimpee]

wouldn't it be absolutely fantastic to see a re-united freur together on a big festival stage doing the "piano song" etc. live in front of an audience that is not even half their age, but going totally wild then!?

;)i can see
a) re-united freur
b) together at a big festival stage
c) doing the "piano song" etc. live in front of an audience that is not even half their age

having trouble envisaging the totally wild bit.

[jose m]

i've seen the video's and they leave me in no doubt that they should never reform !!!

[LX1V]

@stimpee: "vision ... come on!" ;)

@jose m: you are certainly aware of the fact that karl & co. don't look the same now as back in their old freur days, aren't you? ;)

when i like to see a re-united freur, i don't necessarily want them to revive their old look too! :D

[Leon]

@stimpee: "vision ... come on!" ;)

@jose m: you are certainly aware of the fact that karl & co. don't look the same now as back in their old freur days, aren't you? ;)

when i like to see a re-united freur, i don't necessarily want them to revive their old look too! :D

I actually would like to see that! it's the only good thing about Freur :rolleyes:

[LX1V]

I actually would like to see that! it's the only good thing about Freur :rolleyes:

BLASPHEMY! :eek:

:D

[//\/\/]

a thing that is utterly charming about this release format, is the way that it follows you from terminal to terminal :)

i DO like that :)

[den]

Instead of resetting the forums next time, I'd rather we reset Underworld back to Freur.

[//\/\/]

(some things are best-left as they were)