Shooting in Arizona - right to blame Palin?

[Sean]

It seems like we're pretty overdue for a new thread, so here we go.

I'm sure most folks have heard about the unstable gunman who killed 6 and injured 14 when he went on a shooting rampage (http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/10/arizona.shooting.investigation/) a few days ago. And you've probably also heard that the congresswoman he was targeting, and who he shot through the head, was also one of the congresspeople that Sarah Palin included on her map of gun sights (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.judiciaryreport.com/images/sarah-palin-map-gabby-gibbons-1-8-11.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.judiciaryreport.com/sarah_palin_blamed_in_congresswoman_shooting.htm&usg=__JZCXe4M-76EIc1OK7O4hu0RXE14=&h=571&w=350&sz=164&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=DkQeAtb020sc-M:&tbnh=147&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpalin%2Bmap%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26clie nt%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1247%26bih%3D786%26tbs%3Disch: 10%2C57&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=522&vpy=180&dur=4209&hovh=287&hovw=176&tx=89&ty=163&ei=WIorTZHLFYHCsAPs1PzqBQ&oei=WIorTZHLFYHCsAPs1PzqBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&biw=1247&bih=786) demarking politicians she wanted to see voted out in the 2010 elections. And she of course supplemented the gun sight map with the statement that her supporters shouldn't "retreat", they should "RELOAD!" (http://www.blogforarizona.com/.a/6a00d8341bf80c53ef0148c77bd0a9970c-pi).

Now, of course, many political opponents of Palin are pointing to this and claiming that she bears at least some responsibility. What does the dirty community think?

Personally, I think this is the work of an unstable individual first and foremost - and by that I mean the shooter, not Palin. Trying to affiliate him with any popular political party's ideology is uncalled for. But I do think the overall tone of rhetoric, particularly over the past few years, needs to come down a couple notches. While I don't blame the rhetoric from Palin, or Angle (who spoke of "2nd amendment remedies"), or others like them for this shooting, I do believe that it unnecessarily exacerbates things.

Thoughts?

[TheBang]

I agree that this shooting was probably simply a disturbed individual, and not directly related to Palin's rhetoric. That said, I read that Giffords' campaign office windows were shot out during that election period when Palin was targeting her. The extreme rhetoric and fear-mongering needs to stop. You're right; it doesn't help the situation, and there WILL be a day when it will be directly responsible for someone's death.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

:rolleyes: (in SOOOOO many directions)


"It's all funs and games until someone gets hurt." ~ Me Mum

[stimpee]

It doesnt seem like the press or blogs are talking about gun law. Like why a ban on assault weapons like the semi-automatic handgun he had was allowed to expire in 2004 or why he was able to buy the high capacity magazines (31 cartridges!). 2nd amendment, maybe. But shit like that isnt necessary for personal defence even in the USA.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

It doesnt seem like the press or blogs are talking about gun law. Like why a ban on assault weapons like the semi-automatic handgun he had was allowed to expire in 2004 or why he was able to buy the high capacity magazines (31 cartridges!). 2nd amendment, maybe. But shit like that isnt necessary for personal defence even in the USA.

I've heard references to gun law in quite a few. Although, again, there were slight political jabs as who passed what, or voted against something else.

That was yesterday. Today is full blown political stands from the lefts/rights and with the central-thinking concentrating on paying tribute to the victims, as well as family and friends of the victims.

[Deckard]

As has been said... the perpetrator is obviously 100% to blame for the act itself - but that doesn't absolve others of responsibility for the wider destructive culture that may have pushed him - and may be pushing others - over the edge.

Was a political targeting like this predictable? Well, yes. Of course it was. It was as predictable as the subsequent accusations and subsequent whines of protest that we should only blame the perpetrator and not delve deeper or wider. All of it was predictable.

The fact that Giffords actually warned Palin that her use of such violent imagery would have "consequences" says it all.

Though of course it goes without saying this is a problem that goes deeper than Palin. She's merely the useful idiot who came to prominence and slid into the role of lightning rod.


[EDIT: I've deleted all the pseudo-sociology I wrote after this point. It adds nothing.]

[Deckard]

Hell. It's a lot easier just to call this an evil act and be done with it. :o

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

[EDIT: I've deleted all the pseudo-sociology I wrote after this point. It adds nothing.]

Oh c'mon, add it back in. It'd be sure start some discussion in this crypt of a forum as of late.

[Deckard]

I would if I had the time to think it through a bit more before typing jOHN. And I'm really pressed for time lately.

Essentially it was that the problem is wider than just Palin and maybe even deeper than just Fox pundits. In all honesty I was just struggling to express myself without ending up with a crass national stereotype.

Here look... here's the problem, Rush's Arizona billboard...

http://i.imgur.com/carF0.jpg

But it's not just him. Guns, targets, reload, rearm, military metaphors in the most inane of political speeches, always constant reminders of strength and hard power, even police officers swaggering around in a way that they mostly don't in my country - to an outsider this sort of thing can appear quite weird.

In all honesty I'm not sure what it all has to do with the shooting, but it's where my thought-wank was taking me before I thought better of it. I'm just grappling for explanations like everyone else.

[Troy McClure]

I'd like to write a long post about it since I've lived in Arizona all my life, and might be able to offer something personal this thread. I don't live in CD-8, which Ms. Giffords proudly represents, I live in CD-5 which was represented by a Democrat until last week. Let me gather my thoughts and see what I can type up.

That said, just knowing that yesterday Ms. Giffords opened her eyes last night when Nancy Pelosi, Kristen Gillibrand and Debbie Wasserman Schultz visited her, and today the surgeons sat her up on the hospital bed with her legs hanging over the edge is just so fantastic.

Jason

[Deckard]

Impressed and moved by Obama's dignified statesmanship.

Nauseated by Palin's narcissistic nonsense.

And of course not entirely comfortable about the greater emotional reaction to the 6 people killed in Tucson than the 500 nameless fatalities in the Brazilian flooding this week - but we're all familiar with the reasons for that.

[human151]

As I watched the coverage this past week I couldn't help but think to myself....

That thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people died that day. What makes these people so special? Oh, she was a congress women, big deal. One was a nine year old, its sad, but there are other nine year old girls that die everyday.

And what sickened me most was that this was treated as if it were some national tragedy the same scope as 9/11. The news went on and on about it for days. What, was there no other news for those five days? No other people were innocent murder victims during those days? The media is pretty damn pathetic. It's not about the news, its about ratings and getting eyeballs in front of the TV by hyping it up as a huge tragedy.

No, it is not right to blame Palin. She is not responsible for the lonely guy who goes off the deep end and kills people.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

A tragedy is a tragedy. I myself have seen reports covering the mudslides in Brazil in the papers, on the web and televison.

The reason for more coverage of murders to a natural disaster is up to oneself to ponder, I guess.

Not to mention, there's that whole 'irony' word yet again; in regards to Tucson.

[Sarcasmo]

Avoiding human151's rabbit hole for a moment, I figured I'd weigh in on the AZ shooting.

While the onus of responsibility ultimately falls upon the shooter, he's also (from what I've seen and heard) clearly mentally unstable. It remains to be seen whether or not our criminal justice system will take that into consideration before judging him guilty and throwing him into prison for the rest of his life. Although, being Arizona, they'll probably execute him.

I don't believe it's appropriate to blame Sarah Palin for anything. At the very least, if we're going to lay blame at her feet, all Americans need to accept an equal share. Ours is a country obsessed with guns; that glorifies violence as a solution to problems. Combine this with a pseudo-religious belief in the God given right to carry high powered firearms, and it's not the greatest leap in reasoning to see how a mentally disturbed individual could look at a map with crosshairs and names, and decide that his alien overlords want these people dead.

The vitriolic and hateful language might be toned down for a bit, if only for propriety's sake, (if the events of 9/11 couldn't effect some sort of mass re-socialization toward more civility and understanding, then this wont, either) but it will be back before you know it. What concerns me more is that this shooting is going to bring gun control back to the forefront in many states, and I have the sinking feeling that the concealed carry folks are going to win a great deal of additional freedoms. As if we read in the newspapers every day about some mild mannered software analyst or CPA personally thwarting a mugging or convenience store robbery with his Glock-22.

No, I would like Sarah Palin to get as much exposure as humanly possible in the next 18 months. Like the Klan: the more she's seen and heard, the more obvious it is to everyone that she's terribly misinformed and nothing more than an attention whore. Anything that keeps her from sniffing a presidential nomination, as far as I'm concerned. Also, take a good look at who responds to her, and people like her and Glenn Beck. I'm talking about the Keith Olbermanns and the Bill Mahers, as two examples. They're not part of the solution, either.

Now, I don't disagree with the facts of human151's statements. I do however, question the motivation behind them. The fact that we, as Americans, discuss what happened, and who is suffering as a consequence is perfectly human and appropriate. It does not mean that we don't also care about the hundreds of thousands of lives lost everywhere else around the world, but geographically, this happened in our back yard. Additionally, I think it's insensitive and disingenuous to suggest that we should not be allowed to mourn some dead people unless we mourn ALL dead people, when I see no evidence that you've made it a daily habit to do so yourself.