The Ethics of Stream Rips

[BrotherLovesDub]

Maybe we should open up a discussion for what people think about stream rips and whether they negatively impact record sales.

Last night's MySpace stream was only available in the UK and streamed at 96 or 128k. The 6 tracks pulled from that show and available on iTunes in August will be available at 256/320kbps most likely and sourced from the soundboard.

Would a complete recording of the Roundhouse show cause you to not buy the iTunes EP? Were you planning on buying the iTunes EP anyway? Would hearing an inferior version push you to buy the superior sound quality iTunes version?

What does UW management think about sharing stream rips?

[Professor]

This time around I plan to buy everything I can from Underworld. I didn't get much of the special edition stuff from Bells... I regret that. I think the stream rip would only excite me, and keep me from having a mental snap while waiting for the new album. I will buy the Itunes edition of Roundhouse for sure when it's available; if it's available to me in the US. For me, having gig rips is only part of the UW experience, and definitely doesn't hinder me from purchasing material from them. I want it all....

[hypeless]

For me, with rips / leaks and the like - I only ever get them because they come out *first*. I admire the purists among us who wouldn't listen to a leaked copy of Barking tonight. But me? I couldn't resist. (After all, it's my birthday!) If / when the legit releases come out, I buy them because they're better quality of course, but more importantly to support our boys!!

I don't even mind that there are bonus tracks on international releases. For the immense positive impact that their music has had on my life, every now and then to drop a tenner, twenty, thirty, forty into a hat (and get either a brilliant track, or a shiny piece of artwork for my trouble) is no large order, and I'll try to get them all. It's annoying in concept, maybe but once I can save up for the records, it's a little fun too.

[holden]

Ok, so i'm not usually in favor of downloading album leaks, because, aside from the major fans like you dirties that will buy the album, i think a lot of sales are lost because casual listeners will just DL the leak and if the sound quality's ok, not bother to buy the record. That hurts UW.

BUT - in the case of internet streams - this is akin to how we used to tape songs off the radio. Most of the time, it's inferior sound quality, lo bit rate and glitchy or incomplete - something for the hardcore fans to collect and share (NOT sell). For live gigs like this, (a) most won't get released for profit anyway or (b)if they are to be released, as in the case of this iTunes EP, it will get the remastered treatment.

(sidenote: consider the gigs that were compiled to create "Everything, Everything". Many of us probably have bootlegs of those shows, but certainly the sum of those parts was much greater for the final CD release, and having a boot of the Pinkpop 1998 gig or whatever wouldn't deter someone from buying E,E., i don't think)

Of course, the band's attitute towards bootlegging is a factor. AFAIK, Underworld have allowed RTSR to exist and share, and have themselves posted a lot of live material on their site over the years. It's on the fans to be respectful and not abuse the band's generosity for sharing via broadcasts and downloads - people that sell bootlegs for money are violating copyright and making profit on something that isn't their creation. But i think a fan that is interested enough to record and collect streams or dodgy audience tapes is probably pretty devoted to said band anyway and will def. buy the Real Deals, be they iTunes EPs or Deluxe Edition Imports.

[dubman]

i dont give a shit about streams, they're a waste of time aside from seeing if i'll even bother to download something (case in point: skream's new album. not worth downloading). if a full quality version is available, i get it. if i like it and it's on CD, i'll get that. sometimes i'll buy it digitally.

[stimpee]

I think as long as youre not distributing files in the same quality as the stuff thats on sale (or thereabouts) then youre in safe territory. Plus, this stuff has been broadcast so it is akin to recording off the radio. I dont see what the fuss is all about.

[khouri]

It is absolutely ethical to rip and share anything that is released for free. That Underworld are releasing an enhanced version later isn't really relevant as the stream itself is the product in question.

However, when the iTunes EP is released, the hardcore Dirts and RSTR's can elect to shut down distribution of that bootleg so as to drive sales to the band.

[the mongoose]

If it feels good, do it.;)

[testudo]

stream??? WHERE?!!?!?!

[the mongoose]

But honestly, I'm buying a (probably) $30-40 box set eventually......so that's like buying 3 copies of the regular album. It's gotta pretty much work out karma wise and money wise, right?

I don't see the iTunes Festival audio stuff up here on the boards that's easy to d/l etc.....but if I really really wanted it I could use download stream app to get the mp4 from a video site, use a standard audio program to burn just the audio of the mp4 and so on.....so basically anyone could have a free 480p copy that sounds great as a wav on a cd.:rolleyes:

But if the album is available in physical form I always prefer cd wav quality (old fashioned) and will purchase it (unless it completely sucks and only 1-2 tracks are worth not chunking into the Recycle Bin...lol).

In a recent example, I preordered 'Further' from the Chemical Brothers as a cd on Amazon, but then was impressed by the fact that iTunes had the Visual Experience ready to download as part of the iTunes pass. So I bought the pass just for the video version and the bonus tracks (hope they keep em coming too!). So when my cd arrived, I didn't have to rip it, move it to my other players, etc.....I was already set. I just popped the cd in once to do a copy disc for the car so it doesn't fuck up the original copy, and put the original away on the shelf for posterity or whatever.

But, guess the point is that all that came AFTER the thread I made with leaked boots and streams abound.;)

[m.g.]

This time around I plan to buy everything I can from Underworld. I didn't get much of the special edition stuff from Bells... I regret that. I think the stream rip would only excite me, and keep me from having a mental snap while waiting for the new album. I will buy the Itunes edition of Roundhouse for sure when it's available; if it's available to me in the US. For me, having gig rips is only part of the UW experience, and definitely doesn't hinder me from purchasing material from them. I want it all....This is exactly how I think... :)

[TheBang]

I don't doubt that most of the people posting in this thread will buy the EP when it is released; that's not what I'm worried about. But what about all the lurkers that don't post? Or the visitors that don't even register for an account? Or the people who repost it on music forums or torrent sites?

And I don't buy the quality argument either, because these days you have kids throwing 128 Kbps MP3's on their iPods who think they sound just like the CD. Do you honestly believe that posting the whole stream for free download won't cost a single sale on the EP? And regardless of what the revenue split is, a lost EP sale is still money out of Underworld's pocket.

I'm not saying don't post the stream here. I'm saying, don't post the tracks that are going to be available for sale. And since we don't know which tracks are going to be on the EP, I think we need to wait. Once that is known, I say fair game on the rest of the show.

I'm also not saying we need to fight Underworld's battles, but as their devoted fans, don't you think we should be a bit respectful? I know we want everything now now now, but is it really that hard to wait a week or two until the EP tracklist is known?

[testudo]

I miss the days when all live stuff was free to roam where it wanted to... oh i miss the days...

[stimpee]

I don't doubt that most of the people posting in this thread will buy the EP when it is released; that's not what I'm worried about. But what about all the lurkers that don't post? Or the visitors that don't even register for an account? Or the people who repost it on music forums or torrent sites?i see your point, and we have had RTSR for live collectors with a membership as authentication. But i'm not against the distribution of this live recording.

I'm also not saying we need to fight Underworld's battles, but as their devoted fans, don't you think we should be a bit respectful? I know we want everything now now now, but is it really that hard to wait a week or two until the EP tracklist is known?erm... people really dont like to wait :) Its hard enough waiting until september for the album!

[Flywaver]

We all live in the 'Must Have World...'
Take the iphone4. On release a mate queued for 5 hours after doing night shift.....:eek:
10 days later i picked it up straight away... Ok Apple have there issues with it right now although my phone is fine with this reception issue.
If a Stream comes on here and i miss it. So be it. The iTunes EP comes out when i trek abroad. But im a patient Underworld padawan....:)
Ive got plenty of faith in Underworld and im sure ill be barking about Barking!
All my favourite bands seem to be the ones who have a fair old gap between albums.But they are craftsman after a timeless release...BELIEVE! (and relax ;o))

[big screen satellite]

its not like this wasn't broadcast live and the fact that someone else might have ripped it (not on this forum) and posted on line

i say its a free for all...

i mean how many you tube vids are out there of this already...

quality matters not, there might be a few people on here who want it in top quality mp3 / wav etc, but i bet the majority of music being listened to and downloaded these days is relatively 'shit' quality... but the 'kids' don't care - its not a reason to distribute shit quality but i bet 95% of internet downloaders are not audiophiles, i mean there's a market for camera recorded cinema movies... those who will buy will buy regardless...

[Dirty0900]

This was broadcast live to the world so in thoery UW could have said no filming for new material etc. With gigs like this, I don't see the harm in getting ripped files, however I am buying the EP.

[ThingInABook]

i would love to buy the EP, i'm still a record buyer and, even if i download albums/tracks, i still purchase 70-90% of what i've downloaded. however, the itunes regional restriction is one of the things preventing me from getting exclusives and streams and that's extremely maddening.

i do have a partial bootleg from the roundhouse gig, but reading about rick mastering the EP in today's blog entry, made me want the official recording.

if u/w has an online portal like their website, they should release these things like they did with the riveruns. some people, like casual listeners, go to itunes, because it's just like a supermarket. in my personal case, i go directly to the source, that being the official website.

[Spooky Shoes]

I'd buy a lossless version direct from UW but I won't buy MP3's from iTunes and I won't resort to other methods.

[DoctorRad]

Bottom line: did anyone get a rip of the full stream and are they going to make it public anywhere? I for one would use it to decide whether I like the performance enough to warrant buying the Live EP.

[TheBang]

Bottom line: did anyone get a rip of the full stream and are they going to make it public anywhere? I for one would use it to decide whether I like the performance enough to warrant buying the Live EP.
:confused: You can listen to 3 minutes worth of previews on iTunes. Is that not enough to decide?

[testudo]

:confused: You can listen to 3 minutes worth of previews on iTunes. Is that not enough to decide?

Careful Bang, you are a bit conflicted on this issue, i.e., you are getting a commission from the sales.

[stimpee]

Careful Bang, you are a bit conflicted on this issue, i.e., you are getting a commission from the sales.My understanding is that the proceeds of the affiliation go towards the running of this site. Also, Rick has overseen the additional production of the tracks that go to the iTunes Festival EP rather than the straight audio from TV/stream.

[richardacre]

Firstly I'd love a rip of the VIDEO from the iTunes gig, never mind the audio, seeing Always Loved a Film on youtube just makes me want the rest! But I'm still up to the eyeballs in legit Underworld media whenever I can buy the stuff, so I guess the fans-bootlegging thing applies here too..

Secondly, I bootlegged, direct to PCM WAV from Radio 1 on Sky Digital, Underworld Live @ Maida Vale on the John Peel show in Dec 2003... And still have it :-)

In fact I listened to some of it in the car on the way to work this morning, having later mp3'd it