Arizona - WTF?

[Sean]

So Arizona's been passing some fun new legislation these days. And by "fun", of course I mean "idiotic".

First up is SB 1024, the "birther"-appeasing bill (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/sb1024h.pdf) that will require the Arizona Secretary of State to verify the citizenship of presidential candidates. Not surprisingly, this bill passed with exclusively Republican support. And while it's an idiotic bill, it did make for some entertaining television the other day when Anderson Cooper skewered an Arizona lawmaker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn2Sf1yaDo4) over the so-called reasoning behind passing it.

And then of course there's the fancy new immigration bill, SB 1070 ( http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf), which requires law enforcement folks to demand proof of citizenship "where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States". Now, the governor of Arizona herself may not be able to tell us what an illegal immigrant looks like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrcVvfv26Q) to justify "reasonable suspicion", but the bill assures us that "a law enforcement official or agency...may not solely consider race, color, or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent allowed by the United States or Arizona constitution". Of course "solely" is a pretty key word in this stipulation. They can consider race, color and national origin as long as they've also considered, for example, the color of the person in question's shirt as well.

But these paper-thin restrictions are enough for people like the queen of morons herself, Sarah Palin, to declare "There is no ability or opportunity in there for the racial profiling. And shame on the lame stream media again for turning this into something that it is not." ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,591654,00.html) I'm not sure that Sarah has read this bill based on what she says, but hey - why expect her to be informed about anything at this point in the game, right? Anyway, I find it interesting that the same people who love to call Obama a "fascist" among other things are now the only ones in the country that are actually passing legislation that will literally have police on the streets reciting the fascist catch-phrase, "papers please..." And if they don't do their mandated job of asking for papers, then "a person who is a legal resident of this state may bring an action in superior court to challenge any official or agency...that adopts or implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law."

Arizona is getting awfully scary.

[the mongoose]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2mq4xoh.jpg

[chems1919]

Woah...I just blue myself.

But in all seriousness, I didn't know Arizona was doing this. The immigration bill is particularly disturbing...I would think that would be an invasion of privacy on some level. So basically, the cops are going to be pulling over any Mexicans that are riding in the back of a pick-up truck.

I understand why certain people are against illegal immigrants, but this is taking it way too far imo. I think Maddox had it best:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/immigrant.gif

[cacophony]

I find it interesting that the same people who love to call Obama a "fascist" among other things are now the only ones in the country that are actually passing legislation that will literally have police on the streets reciting the fascist catch-phrase, "papers please..."
this is a really excellent point. i hope to hear more people making this observation in the media in the days to come.

[dubman]

hey, this is exciting!

when are stitching mandatory yellow sombreros on people darker than a home depot swatch.

[mmm skyscraper]

Arizona is getting awfully scary.

So is Mexico:

http://www.cddhcu.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/doc/140.doc

LEY GENERAL DE POBLACIÓN

ArtÃ*culo 73.- Las autoridades que por ley tengan a su mando fuerzas públicas federales, locales o municipales, prestarán su colaboración a las autoridades de migración cuando éstas lo soliciten, para hacer cumplir las disposiciones de esta Ley.

ArtÃ*culo 85.- La SecretarÃ*a de Gobernación tiene a su cargo el registro y la acreditación de la identidad de todas las personas residentes en el paÃ*s y de los nacionales que residan en el extranjero.

ArtÃ*culo 86.- El Registro Nacional de Población tiene como finalidad registrar a cada una de las personas que integran la población del paÃ*s, con los datos que permitan certificar y acreditar fehacientemente su identidad.

ArtÃ*culo 87.- En el Registro Nacional de Población se inscribirá:

I. A los mexicanos, mediante el Registro Nacional de Ciudadanos y el Registro de Menores de Edad; y

II. A los extranjeros, a través del Catálogo de los Extranjeros residentes en la República Mexicana.

ArtÃ*culo 91.- Al incorporar a una persona en el Registro Nacional de Población, se le asignará una clave que se denominará Clave Unica de Registro de Población. Esta servirá para registrarla e identificarla en forma individual.


Translation from Google:

GENERAL POPULATION LAW

Article 73 .- The authorities which by law have federal forces under their command, local or municipal, shall assist the immigration authorities at their request, to enforce the provisions of this Act

Article 85 .- The Ministry of Interior is responsible for registration and accreditation of the identity of all persons residing in the country and nationals residing abroad.

Article 86 .- The National Population Registry aims to register each of the persons in the population, with the information needed to certify and accredit their identity.

Article 87 .- In the National Population Register is recorded:

I. The Mexicans, by the National Register of Citizens and the Register of Minors and

II. Foreigners, through the Catalogue of Foreigners Residing in Mexico.

Article 91 .- By bringing in one person in the National Population Register will be assigned a key that is called the Clave Unica Population Register. This will register and identify an individual.

[Deckard]

So Arizona's been passing some fun new legislation these days. And by "fun", of course I mean "idiotic".

First up is SB 1024, the "birther"-appeasing bill (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/48leg/2r/bills/sb1024h.pdf) that will require the Arizona Secretary of State to verify the citizenship of presidential candidates. Not surprisingly, this bill passed with exclusively Republican support. And while it's an idiotic bill, it did make for some entertaining television the other day when Anderson Cooper skewered an Arizona lawmaker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn2Sf1yaDo4) over the so-called reasoning behind passing it.

And then of course there's the fancy new immigration bill, SB 1070 ( http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf), which requires law enforcement folks to demand proof of citizenship "where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States". Now, the governor of Arizona herself may not be able to tell us what an illegal immigrant looks like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrcVvfv26Q) to justify "reasonable suspicion", but the bill assures us that "a law enforcement official or agency...may not solely consider race, color, or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent allowed by the United States or Arizona constitution". Of course "solely" is a pretty key word in this stipulation. They can consider race, color and national origin as long as they've also considered, for example, the color of the person in question's shirt as well.

But these paper-thin restrictions are enough for people like the queen of morons herself, Sarah Palin, to declare "There is no ability or opportunity in there for the racial profiling. And shame on the lame stream media again for turning this into something that it is not." ( http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,591654,00.html) I'm not sure that Sarah has read this bill based on what she says, but hey - why expect her to be informed about anything at this point in the game, right? Anyway, I find it interesting that the same people who love to call Obama a "fascist" among other things are now the only ones in the country that are actually passing legislation that will literally have police on the streets reciting the fascist catch-phrase, "papers please..." And if they don't do their mandated job of asking for papers, then "a person who is a legal resident of this state may bring an action in superior court to challenge any official or agency...that adopts or implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law."

Arizona is getting awfully scary.
You know what comes across more than anything in all the instances you mention here is fear. The people pushing these things are feeling fearful. Threatened by people they feel are "not like us". Infiltrated by "outsiders".

(Why they only appear to have started thinking this way in the last 18 months or so, I couldn't possibly speculate............ )

The Republican leadership should be distancing themselves from this paranoid nonsense - not encouraging it.

Probably time for yet another remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, to take advantage of this 'aliens among us' zeitgeist.

[Strangelet]

this is a really excellent point. i hope to hear more people making this observation in the media in the days to come.

agreed. By the same people who brought you paranoid fear that FEMA was in the late stages of Operation Obama Gulag comes "THE MIGHTY RULE OF LAW!!!!" Hypocrisy so unabashed these guys might as well forgo taking off their latex gogo boots and bondage collars before going to sunday church.

Mongoose? you want to talk about the rule of law?

[Strangelet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijeXGv9QLRc

[chems1919]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100428/ts_csm/297622

California is going to try to boycott any business they do with Arizona. Hopefully more states will do the same.

[Sean]

agreed. By the same people who brought you paranoid fear that FEMA was in the late stages of Operation Obama Gulag comes "THE MIGHTY RULE OF LAW!!!!" Hypocrisy so unabashed these guys might as well forgo taking off their latex gogo boots and bondage collars before going to sunday church. I loved Roland Martin's take on it (http://mag.ma/cnn/522383) a few days ago:

COOPER: Roland, let me just play devil’s advocate here. What’s wrong with the State of Arizona saying you know what, a presidential candidate should produce a birth certificate and we have the right to demand that?

ROLAND MARTIN: Because they’re stupid! They’re stupid! Ok, these are the same people Anderson, who always talk about state’s rights. So basically what they’re saying is to the State of Hawaii, “We don’t trust you.”

And so I would turn it on this head, how would state officials in Arizona feel if another state rejected their birth certificates? See it’s not just so simple as well, just present a birth certificate.

And the Daily Show a few days ago skewered Arizona as "the meth lab of Democracy" (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-april-26-2010-lisa-p--jackson) in their opening segment.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100428/ts_csm/297622

California is going to try to boycott any business they do with Arizona. Hopefully more states will do the same.Good to see! Thanks for the link! I know I won't be going to visit Arizona until they kill these stupid bills.

[Sean]

And as an encore performance to the recent immigration bill, Arizona's Department of Education has begun "ordering school districts to bar teachers who speak accented or ungrammatical English (http://racerelations.about.com/b/2010/05/03/arizona-targets-teachers-with-accents-ethnic-studies-programs.htm) from classes containing English Language Learners", and has passed a bill to ban ethnic studies courses (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/30/arizona-legislature-passes-banning-ethnic-studies-programs/).

I'm speechless. :eek:

[the mongoose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y1AbjZIrpk

[Deckard]

And as an encore performance to the recent immigration bill, Arizona's Department of Education has begun "ordering school districts to bar teachers who speak accented or ungrammatical English (http://racerelations.about.com/b/2010/05/03/arizona-targets-teachers-with-accents-ethnic-studies-programs.htm) from classes containing English Language Learners", and has passed a bill to ban ethnic studies courses (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/30/arizona-legislature-passes-banning-ethnic-studies-programs/).

I'm speechless. :eek:
Me too.

And a little afraid.

[Sean]

Me too.

And a little afraid.What makes it REALLY scary is that 52% of Arizona residents apparently think the immigration bill is a good idea (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/05/arizona-poll-majority-support-states-immigration-law/?fbid=AUSNfeIwpkJ), even though over 80% acknowledge that "its very or somewhat likely that the new law will lead to police officers detaining people of certain racial or ethnic groups more frequently than other racial or ethnic groups."

[Sean]

It's official. Arizona's Governor has just signed a new bill banning ethnic studies programs (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.4090f16a5abf84c5a5adff0665cbc79 2.2c1&show_article=1) in Tucson.

"Brewer approved a bill late Tuesday, promoted by the state's schools boss, Tom Horne, who has said that the program run by the Tucson school district promotes a 'destructive ethnic chauvinism.'

Tucson school officials have insisted the program only aims to provide students with courses about the role of minorities in historical events such as the Vietnam war or literature courses featuring Latino authors.

The bill signed by Brewer on Tuesday prohibits any classes which promote the overthrow of the United States government, promote resentment toward a race or class of people, or are tailored for pupils from a particular racial group."

The crazy and stupid people are gaining too much political power if they can pass moronic bills like this, and if they're running campaigns viewed as legitimate despite running ads like the one highlighted in the "Best political ad my eyes have had the pleasure of seeing" thread (http://www.darktrain.org/dirty/forums/showthread.php?t=10891). I hope the sane, intelligent people turn out to shut this crap down.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

What makes it REALLY scary is that 52% of Arizona residents apparently think the immigration bill is a good idea (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/05/arizona-poll-majority-support-states-immigration-law/?fbid=AUSNfeIwpkJ), even though over 80% acknowledge that "its very or somewhat likely that the new law will lead to police officers detaining people of certain racial or ethnic groups more frequently than other racial or ethnic groups."

Maybe the reason why you think it's so "scary" is because you don't live in Arizona, so you can't really understand what's going on there. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything but I have lived in Tuscon a few years and have travelled to Mexico five times in the last two years, spending nearly three months there. It's easy for liberals (no offense, but it's only liberals I've seen do this) to paint this as an excuse for racism and little else, and while I admit the bill is undoubtably going to lead to some racial profiling, it's not like Arizona as is a state that hates Mexican people. Hell, half the police I saw while I was there were Latinos. The reason this bill was passed is pretty much a direct result of what's going on in Mexico. You really can't overestimate the amount of power the drug lords have there or the extent of the drug violence that goes on. They are not exactly acting discretely there. It's pretty well-known that most of the Mexican politicians are working with them - unlike America, they barely even try to cover that up. The police in particular are pretty much all corrupt. It's not their fault - either you run protection or your family gets killed...easy choice. I was in Merida, Yucatan for a month when the governor had basically declared "war" on the drug dealers, filling the streets with heavily (like, ridiculously heavily) armed police vehicles ready to lay waste to an entire city block if need be (completely unnecessary, but still a striking image). The drug dealers' reponse? They threatened to kidnap 50 people from a graduation party I was at - sure enough it was over by 9 PM (when they typically go until the sun rises). They threatened to kidnap people from nightclubs, and soon there was almost NO nightlife in the city whatsoever. 90% of these were just empty threats, but some people, mostly college students, were kidnapped, held for ransom, then brutally murdered. Hell, just look up the news coming out of Juarez, where innocent people are literally killed every day thanks to stupid, drug-related violence.
Okay so that's Mexico, but some of that spills over into border states, especially Arizona. It's not as severe, but last I heard they were averaging one kidnapping per day, with public threats occuring somewhat frequently. It's not the legal US Citizens that are doing this. A lot of people think that the illegals in border states were mostly poor dudes trying to make a better life - a drain on our tax system but not really a threat. The truth is there is a lot of drug-related violence there which is overwhelmingly linked to the illegals. I'm not an expert on this bill but I've known for years that border states needed to do SOMETHING about this. That's why the (slight) majority is in favor of this. There's no way this would pass in a place like Ohio. Whether or not the bill is a good one, I don't really know, but yeah if I knew someone who was kidnapped and murdered I'd support anything that would at least try to curb the problem. The liberal point of view seems to be "so immigrants will be out on a family dinner, the police will investigate them because they look foreign, lock them up because they won't have a passport, and try to deport them". There is no way this is going to create a new wave of racial profiling from officers who enjoy hasseling innocent foreign people. It's just a step to try to curb something that is a REAL problem in the South, something that sadly doesn't get a fraction of the news coverage this new bill has.

[Sean]

Maybe the reason why you think it's so "scary" is because you don't live in Arizona, so you can't really understand what's going on there.I live in Los Angeles, so I have a pretty good idea. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for controlling immigration to keep things legal, but I don't believe we should be doing it through bills that literally take us in an undeniably bold step towards fascist policy - and I don't throw around terms like "fascist" lightly at all. The reason I think it's "scary" is that we as American citizens should never embrace policies that place undue burden on a single group for no other reason than their ethnic origin. It won't be white people getting asked to show their papers every time they get pulled over for a traffic violation. Simply being of Mexican heritage is what will inevitably be the single biggest factor in determining if they must carry multiple forms of id with them at all times to avoid being arrested - and having multiple forms of id with us at all times is something that Americans don't legally have to do.

I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything but I have lived in Tuscon a few years and have travelled to Mexico five times in the last two years, spending nearly three months there. It's easy for liberals (no offense, but it's only liberals I've seen do this) to paint this as an excuse for racism and little else, and while I admit the bill is undoubtably going to lead to some racial profiling, it's not like Arizona as is a state that hates Mexican people. Hell, half the police I saw while I was there were Latinos.Well, I'm not a liberal, and I'm saying it. I say it because I refuse to look at this bill in isolation. I look at it coupled with Arizona's resistence to recognizing Martin Luther King Day, the details of this legislation, their recent decision to not allow teachers with accents to continue teaching, and this past Tuesday's new bill banning ethnic studies classes in Arizona schools. These are all examples of a very disturbing trend in Arizona that I'm absolutely floored by.

The reason this bill was passed is pretty much a direct result of what's going on in Mexico. You really can't overestimate the amount of power the drug lords have there or the extent of the drug violence that goes on. They are not exactly acting discretely there. It's pretty well-known that most of the Mexican politicians are working with them - unlike America, they barely even try to cover that up. The police in particular are pretty much all corrupt. It's not their fault - either you run protection or your family gets killed...easy choice. I was in Merida, Yucatan for a month when the governor had basically declared "war" on the drug dealers, filling the streets with heavily (like, ridiculously heavily) armed police vehicles ready to lay waste to an entire city block if need be (completely unnecessary, but still a striking image). The drug dealers' reponse? They threatened to kidnap 50 people from a graduation party I was at - sure enough it was over by 9 PM (when they typically go until the sun rises). They threatened to kidnap people from nightclubs, and soon there was almost NO nightlife in the city whatsoever. 90% of these were just empty threats, but some people, mostly college students, were kidnapped, held for ransom, then brutally murdered. Hell, just look up the news coming out of Juarez, where innocent people are literally killed every day thanks to stupid, drug-related violence.We're in complete agreement about the heinous nature of the drug wars in Mexico. A good friend of mine had a house down there that he sold last year because 4 severed heads were left on the sidewalk down the street from it. It's absolutely a serious problem.
Okay so that's Mexico, but some of that spills over into border states, especially Arizona. It's not as severe, but last I heard they were averaging one kidnapping per day, with public threats occuring somewhat frequently. It's not the legal US Citizens that are doing this. A lot of people think that the illegals in border states were mostly poor dudes trying to make a better life - a drain on our tax system but not really a threat. The truth is there is a lot of drug-related violence there which is overwhelmingly linked to the illegals. I'm not an expert on this bill but I've known for years that border states needed to do SOMETHING about this. That's why the (slight) majority is in favor of this. There's no way this would pass in a place like Ohio. Whether or not the bill is a good one, I don't really know, but yeah if I knew someone who was kidnapped and murdered I'd support anything that would at least try to curb the problem. The liberal point of view seems to be "so immigrants will be out on a family dinner, the police will investigate them because they look foreign, lock them up because they won't have a passport, and try to deport them". There is no way this is going to create a new wave of racial profiling from officers who enjoy hasseling innocent foreign people. It's just a step to try to curb something that is a REAL problem in the South, something that sadly doesn't get a fraction of the news coverage this new bill has.You say "Whether or not the bill is a good one, I don't really know". Well, knowing whether or not it's a good bill is crucial to forming an opinion on it. The biggest two key problems in it for me are that:

1) it stipulates that law enforcement personnel are required to demand proof of citizenship "where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States", and yet it doesn't define what constitutes "reasonable suspicion". And when asked what an illegal immigrant "looks like", even Arizona's governor that signed the bill into law answered "I don't know". So who will be targetted under this kind of loose wording? Mexicans, whether here legally or not.

And 2) couple the above point with the fact that the bill also says "a person who is a legal resident of this state may bring an action in superior court to challenge any official or agency...that adopts or implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law". So simply put, if a white person walking down the street sees a cop pull over someone of Mexican descent and NOT ask for their papers, they can sue that cop. Basically, this stipulation will place added pressure on police to racially profile.

So again, I have no problem with immigration reform, and common-sense approaches to administering laws that are already in place regarding illegal immigration, but I do not support in any way a policy that victimizes an entire ethnic group for no other reason than their ethnicity. I honestly feel like we're headed towards repeating one of the most shameful chapters in American history, when we had Japanese internment camps during World War 2.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

I'd be curious to see what actually gets done over there. I never really thought Arizona was a racist state. If you were racist, you wouldn't want to live there. I don't really know the details of the other things you mentioned but I dunno, I always thought MLK day was kind of a silly holiday too (and I don't believe I am a racist). The accent thing is very disturbing but I'll wait for more details - yeah this sounds pretty bad but I can understand. In college I had several professors whose accents were so thick that many students ended up doing pretty badly because they couldn't understand a word they were saying. I wonder if this "law" is going to affect people with "normal" Mexican accents or only the really thick ones. This sounds like a law that ultimately will not have any teeth. The backlash from 'enforcing' this would be huge.

As for this bill, you got me, I really don't have much of an opinion on it yet, I'm just saying I'm not surprised that Arizona is taking action given what's going on there. To be honest, every bill that I have followed almost never has the types of effects that are speculated. The one bill that really affected my life (the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act) was supposed to take away my source of income for good, but in the end it did almost nothing besides make depositing and withdrawling money online harder. My initial impression was that it was bad because it invites racial profiling, but honestly I don't know if there's a better idea for curbing the problem.

Many people are assuming "reasonable suspicion" means "anyone who is brown". I find it kind of shit that the governor who passed this won't even really say what we're all thinking. Again I would have to see how it's being enforced. Maybe this law will say that we can ID people because they're Mexican and throw them in jail because they didn't have their passport in the same way IRS law says they can force a person to show reciepts for everything they own and prove they have no 'hidden income' or they can give them stiff penalties. Scary, but almost never happens. Actually, if the police who 'enforce' this are smart and non-biased, I don't think it would really effect the innocents too much, and may give them the ability to bust some bad people they couldn't before. You know how Al Capone went down for tax evasion...

The second part looks real fuzzy, and again I'd have to get a real-world example of something that actually happened before I can really pass judgement on that. Maybe you're disillusioned with America and I'm too optimistic, but I can't see that scenario you came up with ever actually occuring.

Calling this a step towards a "shameful chapter" really sounds like an overreaction to me. It's like you feel as though this bill gives racist cops the ability to jail any Mexican for no reason. You can claim the bill looks fascist and indeed parts of it do, but if it's anywhere near what people are fearing there is no chance it stands as written. The law hasn't even been enforced yet and already they're talking about MLB moving the All-Star game because the Latinos (which are like 40% of the league now) would refuse to play. As I recall, the Patriot Act gave the government some really, really scary powers too, but I can't think of any abuses or anyone who was even affected at all by it.

[Sean]

Okay Arizona, explain to me how this latest story (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/04/20100604arizona-mural-sparks-racial-debate.html) isn't motivated by bigotry:

Altered mural fuels racial debate in Prescott

A group of artists has been asked to lighten the faces of children depicted in a giant public mural at a Prescott school.

The project's leader says he was ordered to lighten the skin tone after complaints about the children's ethnicity. But the school's principal says the request was only to fix shading and had nothing to do with political pressure.

The "Go on Green" mural, which covers two walls outside Miller Valley Elementary School, was designed to advertise a campaign for environmentally friendly transportation. It features portraits of four children, with a Hispanic boy as the dominant figure.

R.E. Wall, director of Prescott's Downtown Mural Project, said he and other artists were subjected to slurs from motorists as they worked on the painting at one of the town's most prominent intersections.

"We consistently, for two months, had people shouting racial slander from their cars," Wall said. "We had children painting with us, and here come these yells of (epithet for Blacks) and (epithet for Hispanics)."

Wall said school Principal Jeff Lane pressed him to make the children's faces appear happier and brighter.

"It is being lightened because of the controversy," Wall said, adding that "they want it to look like the children are coming into light."

Lane said that he received only three complaints about the mural and that his request for a touch-up had nothing to do with political pressure. "We asked them to fix the shading on the children's faces," he said. "We were looking at it from an artistic view. Nothing at all to do with race."

City Councilman Steve Blair spearheaded a public campaign on his talk show at Prescott radio station KYCA-AM (1490) to remove the mural.

In a broadcast last month, according to the Daily Courier in Prescott, Blair mistakenly complained that the most prominent child in the painting is African-American, saying: "To depict the biggest picture on the building as a Black person, I would have to ask the question: Why?"

Blair could not be reached for comment Thursday. In audio archives of his radio show, Blair discusses the mural. He insists the controversy isn't about racism but says the mural is intended to create racial controversy where none existed before.

"Personally, I think it's pathetic," he says. "You have changed the ambience of that building to excite some kind of diversity power struggle that doesn't exist in Prescott, Arizona. And I'm ashamed of that."

Faces in the mural were drawn from photographs of children enrolled at Miller Valley, a K-5 school with 380 students and the highest ethnic mix of any school in Prescott. Wall said thousands of town residents volunteered or donated to the project, the fourth in a series of community murals painted by a group of artists known as the "Mural Mice."

The public art, funded by a $5,000 state grant through the Prescott Alternative Transportation Center, was selected by school students and faculty.

"The parents and children love it," Lane said.

[//\/\/]

"they want it to look like the children are coming into the light'' -er skinned world that we prefer?

[Troy McClure]

I am 33 live in Phoenix, and was born and raised here. The climate of hate being perpetrated here is disgusting and sad. The lies that Governor Jan Brewer spouts aren't even quality lies. They are easily disproved within the hour.

Short takeaway...there are a few people in Arizona who shape the hate to benefit their careers here:

Governor Jan Brewer
State Senator Russell Pearce
Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio
Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu
former sportscaster, US Congressman, and radio talk show host, JD Hayworth

I plan to write something more in depth about each person.

Jan Brewer is on video stating that SB1070 'has nothing to do with border security' and today she said in a speech that the police understand 'how immigration is hurting us'. Articles are stating that she later said that she meant to say illegal immigration. But I've yet to see that verified.

Jason

[Sean]

I am 33 live in Phoenix, and was born and raised here. The climate of hate being perpetrated here is disgusting and sad. The lies that Governor Jan Brewer spouts aren't even quality lies. They are easily disproved within the hour.

Short takeaway...there are a few people in Arizona who shape the hate to benefit their careers here:

Governor Jan Brewer
State Senator Russell Pearce
Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio
Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu
former sportscaster, US Congressman, and radio talk show host, JD Hayworth

I plan to write something more in depth about each person.

Jan Brewer is on video stating that SB1070 'has nothing to do with border security' and today she said in a speech that the police understand 'how immigration is hurting us'. Articles are stating that she later said that she meant to say illegal immigration. But I've yet to see that verified.

Jason
I'd love to hear your more in depth descriptions of each. This stuff in Arizona is very scary to me, and I want to understand as much as I can about it.

Thanks Troy!

[cured]

I'm interested in hearing about it, too, but since I have absolutely no reason or inclination to go to Arizona...ever...I kind of like the idea of locking those crazies away in some part of the nether vortex in my brain.

[Troy McClure]

Today, U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton, granted an injunction to key provisions of SB1070, or what I like to call 'Breathing While Brown' law.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/judge-rules-against-portions-of-arizona-immigration-law.php?ref=fpa

The ruling is available for viewing here: http://bit.ly/a0tooT

The parts that Judge Bolton granted an injunction to were:

The overall law will still take effect Thursday, but without the provisions that angered opponents - including sections that:
Would require officers to check a person's immigration status while enforcing other laws
Would require immigrants to carry their papers at all times
Would make it illegal for undocumented workers to seek out work in public places
Allow police to make a warrantless arrest if they believe a person committed a deportable offenseJason

[the mongoose]

Does a Court Supreme come with sour cream?

[the mongoose]

Obama pulling strings behind the scenes....at least its on pause and not completely shot down yet.

http://i29.tinypic.com/53lruw.png

[Sean]

Obama pulling strings behind the scenes....at least its on pause and not completely shot down yet. So you agree with SB1070?

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Jan Brewer is on video stating that SB1070 'has nothing to do with border security' and today she said in a speech that the police understand 'how immigration is hurting us'. Articles are stating that she later said that she meant to say illegal immigration. But I've yet to see that verified.

Jason

Ummm well no politican ever would ever purposely say that immigration in general is hurting us and I sincerely doubt Brewer feels that way. Kinda weird how everyone (not from AZ) is quick to suspect everyone in the state of racism, especially the politicans and police, when like half of them are Mexican anyway.

[Rex]

Kinda weird how everyone (not from AZ) is quick to suspect everyone in the state of racism, especially the politicans and police, when like half of them are Mexican anyway.

I'm from Utah where people are proposing the same bill. And I'm calling racism. The same racism that went around beating the "english should be the official language of Utah" drum. I'm also not ever moving back in case it passes. That's how serious this is. What I find interesting is conservatives who aren't even around the border calling liberals who are around the border arm chair critics.

Even more hilarious are conservatives who bitch and moan about the jobs lost to illegals just because hector just washed their dishes on the way back to shopping at walmart where everything buyable was made in china.

Multi-nationals sending *ALL* jobs to china or Lupe washing your dishes. Conservatives who can't point to the problem in this scenario are either fucking imbeciles or racist. Line up and pick your favorite badge.

[Deckard]

Ummm well no politican ever would ever purposely say that immigration in general is hurting us
Serious?

either fucking imbeciles or racist. Line up and pick your favorite badge.
Isn't there one with both on?

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Who would ever say something like that?

It's like when people jumped on some of the stupid stuff GW Bush would say even when it's clear he misspoke, like he's having Fraudian slips and really telling the truth
Some people aren't great at public speaking. Obviously no one would ever mean it like that.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

I'm from Utah where people are proposing the same bill. And I'm calling racism. The same racism that went around beating the "english should be the official language of Utah" drum. I'm also not ever moving back in case it passes. That's how serious this is. What I find interesting is conservatives who aren't even around the border calling liberals who are around the border arm chair critics.

Even more hilarious are conservatives who bitch and moan about the jobs lost to illegals just because hector just washed their dishes on the way back to shopping at walmart where everything buyable was made in china.

Multi-nationals sending *ALL* jobs to china or Lupe washing your dishes. Conservatives who can't point to the problem in this scenario are either fucking imbeciles or racist. Line up and pick your favorite badge.

Well this isn't really the scope of the problem at all. Obviously the illegals aren't getting the best jobs but still, they're willing to work for less than minimum wage and can operate "off the books" so yeah many companies don't have a problem hiring them and that is a problem for us. Even if it is just farm and factory, our economy isn't exactly super healthy and there are a lot of people on welfare/unemployment who would like those jobs.

Don't take this the wrong way you sound like someone who has never really experienced Mexican drug violence or has never lived in a neighborhood (as I have) where most people DON'T speak English. I remember a laundromat that had a "we speak English" sign, and taking it to be kind of confrontational until I realized that many of the businesses in the area DIDN'T have many English-speaking employees. It's not a huge problem but if we get huge influxes of people that don't speak English you can see how it would be.

[Rex]

Well this isn't really the scope of the problem at all. Obviously the illegals aren't getting the best jobs but still, they're willing to work for less than minimum wage and can operate "off the books" so yeah many companies don't have a problem hiring them and that is a problem for us. Even if it is just farm and factory, our economy isn't exactly super healthy and there are a lot of people on welfare/unemployment who would like those jobs.


Let's maybe pause and I give you an opportunity to prove that illegal immigration has been a negative affect to the economy.
meanwhile... (http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/The-Adam-Smith-Institute-Blog/2010/0730/Why-Arizona-s-anti-immigration-law-will-hurt-the-state-s-economy)

If SB1070 passes, the support immigrants provide to the local economy will be lost, causing falling productivity. The cost to ensure correct identification for every search or arrest will be also huge.

So, again, you're using arguments about the economy that can be refuted in one minute of google time. Google Arizona Economy. Which makes me wonder: why isn't the one minute worth the investment, if it means you won't have to smear an entire ethnic group?

And why are the banks and construction companies excused from this mob? They hired them illegally. They gave them money to send back to mexico attached to a note saying bring everyone else. Why isn't AZ passing a bill that allows the police to ask for payroll sheets from every employer it meets. And if the employer doesn't have it with them, they'll got to jail until they are proved innocent?

I mean illegal immigration is such a biiiigggg fucking problem right?


Don't take this the wrong way you sound like someone who has never really experienced Mexican drug violence or has never lived in a neighborhood (as I have) where most people DON'T speak English. I remember a laundromat that had a "we speak English" sign, and taking it to be kind of confrontational until I realized that many of the businesses in the area DIDN'T have many English-speaking employees. It's not a huge problem but if we get huge influxes of people that don't speak English you can see how it would be.

Look dude, it sounds like you've been a victim of violence or something and sure that sucks. Lets put aside for a second that "mexican" drug violence is any more exquisitely unique an experience than say russian drug violence, or english drug violence, or american drug violence.

this immigration bill is not the answer.

having these kind of dialogs, reading the comments on news sites, I think people have lost their fucking minds. I truly worry for the american republic.

[Troy McClure]

The next item on my state's to do list is to pass a state law that doesn't give birth certificates if the parents can't prove their status. This is proposed by the same State Senator Russell Pearce who wrote SB 1070 with the help of F.A.I.R.

US Senator Jon Kyl, from AZ also, is taking up the cause to repeal parts of the 14th amendment in the Constitution.

Also under the radar is a candidate for Arizona Corporation Commission, an elected body that decides public utility issues for the state. Republican candidate Barry Wong is campaigning on the idea that would require utility companies to require proof of status before getting electricity, running water or natural gas. For what it's worth he is a grandson of Chinese immigrants.

Jason

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out. I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs. That article didn't really have any hard data but even accepting it's true the fact is why even have the law at all if we're not going to try to enforce it? I can link sites with data to back up that maybe it's not such a great thing like this one: http://www.usillegalaliens.com/ I don't really like the tone of that site but I doubt that it's all bullshit.

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing? I mean it's not exactly the Canadians causing these problems is it? I'm not saying Russian drug violence in America isn't a problem or that we don't have our own drug problems, but we're not exactly leiniant on those issues so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Ultimately this bill is really just going to give police officers (half of which are Mexican, by the way) the power to enforce the law as written. The point of this is not "wow, we should do something about all the brown people" but rather "wow, we should do something about the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state".

If you don't think illegals are a problem don't you feel that we should just open the borders entirely? How would you see that working out?

Once again I feel like 90% of the reaction to this is the same type of hysteria we had with the Patriot Act 8 years ago...yes it gives the government some pretty scary power but in the end they're not going to just use it on random innocents to read their emails. I don't get the impression that they're going to be just randomly taking brown people to jail because of this bill either. Because the lawmakers KNOW what they're getting into with this bill; they know that AZ has a huge Latino population and most of those guys vote. You do know that Latino people are projected to overtake Causasians in America population-wise by 2050, right? Don't you realize how incredibly dumb it would be for any politician to anger that group?

[Rex]

US Senator Jon Kyl, from AZ also, is taking up the cause to repeal parts of the 14th amendment in the Constitution.


I applaud him on his ability to find the parts in the constitution his state is actually taking a shit on.


water or natural gas. For what it's worth he is a grandson of Chinese immigrants.


not worth much at all. everyone in the country is an immigrant. I mean except the mexicans, they are actually at least partially indigenous.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Don't take this the wrong way you sound like someone who has never really experienced Mexican drug violence or has never lived in a neighborhood (as I have) where most people DON'T speak English. I remember a laundromat that had a "we speak English" sign, and taking it to be kind of confrontational until I realized that many of the businesses in the area DIDN'T have many English-speaking employees. It's not a huge problem but if we get huge influxes of people that don't speak English you can see how it would be.


Have you ever experienced White People drug violence? Dat sh. craaazzziiieee!


I applaud him on his ability to find the parts in the constitution his state is actually taking a shit on.



not worth much at all. everyone in the country is an immigrant. I mean except the mexicans, they are actually at least partially indigenous.

I don't know about everybody else, but this Rex guy is hilarious. I hope you stay around longer, this place has been so half in the grave the past few years . . . an'all ya know......

[Rex]

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out.


We are in agreement here. I don't like the lawlessness of the situation either.


I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs.


No, the argument is "they take the jobs we offered them in the first place out of our greed." During the housing boom they were key to AZ expansion, they allowed more houses to go up in less time, allowing more mortgages and all the service sector to gain from the housing boom. And we used the little brown people because they were cheaper and worked their asses off without complaint. Now that the boom is busted, they simply supply a great punching bag.

Let me reiterate this because I think my point was missed. there are no jobs in this country. We have no manufacturing base. 2/3 of all employment is in the service and credit sectors, supplying services and credit to an economy that produces nothing. All Jobs are in China. We now have american companies using bail out money to build factories in other countries to supply products to us. We now have american companies building factories in other countries to sell shit to china's rising consumer base. It came out that Goldman Sachs sent a significant chunk of its bail-out money overseas. Gorilla Glass, a hot new industry worth "billions", an american invention 30 years ago will see a boom of job growth in China.

The middle class in this country is getting squeezed out like a wet wash rag.

And I am laughing my ass off that I have to illustrate this point even more than I have, but how much sense does it make, in this situation, to bitch and moan about the lawn care industry going to the garcia brothers?


That article didn't really have any hard data but even accepting it's true the fact is why even have the law at all if we're not going to try to enforce it?


Enforcement is not a state police jurisdiction. so says the constitution.


Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing?


I think some of the things you've said, and the arguments you've made go into mob politics. The same mob that's being stoked all over a disenfranchized unemployed middle class that is incapable of looking at the real causes of their situation.

here's a link refuting the hysteria around kidnapping in AZ

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2010/jun/28/john-mccain/mccain-says-phoenix-second-kidnapping-capital-worl/


And incidentally I don't advocate an open border. I advocate a guarded border. What I also advocate is something less than a police state to solve the problem.

I could go on talking about Joe Arpaio and his links to private prison firms, how he has already made promises to go on raids god knows where and fill his tent prison where there is "plenty of room", how there are already reports of police so gung ho they are harrassing buses of native americans but what is the point.

Enjoy your fascist, broke ass ignorant country free of illegals. I just hope americans can look themselves in the eye one day and take responsibility for the part they played in the disaster playing out now, and soon to be in the future.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Rex. Rocks.

I have new reason to annoy the ____ outta everyone. Again.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

No, the argument is "they take the jobs we offered them in the first place out of our greed." During the housing boom they were key to AZ expansion, they allowed more houses to go up in less time, allowing more mortgages and all the service sector to gain from the housing boom. And we used the little brown people because they were cheaper and worked their asses off without complaint. Now that the boom is busted, they simply supply a great punching bag.


Unless you know something I don't, I don't think we were actively recruiting Mexicans to illegally cross the border. I don't disagree that they were key to the housing boom. BTW I don't think the point of this law was to rid Arizona of construction workers


Let me reiterate this because I think my point was missed. there are no jobs in this country. We have no manufacturing base. 2/3 of all employment is in the service and credit sectors, supplying services and credit to an economy that produces nothing. All Jobs are in China. We now have american companies using bail out money to build factories in other countries to supply products to us. We now have american companies building factories in other countries to sell shit to china's rising consumer base. It came out that Goldman Sachs sent a significant chunk of its bail-out money overseas. Gorilla Glass, a hot new industry worth "billions", an american invention 30 years ago will see a boom of job growth in China.

The middle class in this country is getting squeezed out like a wet wash rag.

And I am laughing my ass off that I have to illustrate this point even more than I have, but how much sense does it make, in this situation, to bitch and moan about the lawn care industry going to the garcia brothers?


I don't think it's exactly as dire as you state, and I don't quite see the logic behind saying both "there are no jobs in this country" and "it's okay if illegals take the jobs we have"

You have a valid point that there are bigger fish to fry, but why argue this at all then?



Enjoy your fascist, broke ass ignorant country free of illegals. I just hope americans can look themselves in the eye one day and take responsibility for the part they played in the disaster playing out now, and soon to be in the future.

So my argument will lead to a "fascist, broke ass ignorant country" and yours will lead to nothing worse than "the Garcias are mowing the lawn"?? Well I'm not exactly arguing that we should deport all the illegals either. Weird you call America "ignorant" simply for trying to enforce the law we have. So you don't support an open border, but don't care if some people sneak over? We're not talking about keeping out honest, good-natured individuals in search of a better life. It's all how you frame the argument. Once again I am guessing you don't and have never lived in Arizona (or Texas, where I was born). It strikes me as a little nuts to say they're racist bastards for supporting this law because as I mentioned earlier, nobody who was actually racist would want to live there. Sure, some of them are, they do stupid things, and they make the news. Also, plenty of Mexicans hate Americans, did you know that? As I said I've been there for a decent amount of time and yeah, many people I've talked to legit dislike Americans and you better believe that if we started sneaking in the country in droves selling drugs over there we'd probably be shot on the spot. It's just that America is in the position of power in this case.

Again, I'd really wait to see how this was actually enforced before saying America is headed for collapse as a direct result of this law (or whatever). I would bet dollars to donuts that nearly everyone is overreacting.

[Sean]

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out. I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs.I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org (http://www.takeourjobs.org/), which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing? I mean it's not exactly the Canadians causing these problems is it? I'm not saying Russian drug violence in America isn't a problem or that we don't have our own drug problems, but we're not exactly leiniant on those issues so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Ultimately this bill is really just going to give police officers (half of which are Mexican, by the way) the power to enforce the law as written. The point of this is not "wow, we should do something about all the brown people" but rather "wow, we should do something about the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state".Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/12/nation/na-drug-kidnappings12) dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=2) who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

If you don't think illegals are a problem don't you feel that we should just open the borders entirely? How would you see that working out?This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/05/20/am.costello.az.crime.immigrants.cnn?hpt=C2)

Once again I feel like 90% of the reaction to this is the same type of hysteria we had with the Patriot Act 8 years ago...yes it gives the government some pretty scary power but in the end they're not going to just use it on random innocents to read their emails. I don't get the impression that they're going to be just randomly taking brown people to jail because of this bill either. Because the lawmakers KNOW what they're getting into with this bill; they know that AZ has a huge Latino population and most of those guys vote. You do know that Latino people are projected to overtake Causasians in America population-wise by 2050, right? Don't you realize how incredibly dumb it would be for any politician to anger that group?Dumb behavior by politicians? Imagine that! ;)

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org (http://www.takeourjobs.org/), which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.


I don't really know if this is a good argument against SB1070 but it's a good point. I appriciate that someone is taking the time to make sites like that but I'm not sure if that fully gauges the interest...I would doubt that even a handful of out-of-work caucasians know about that site.



Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/12/nation/na-drug-kidnappings12) dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=2) who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without. (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/05/20/am.costello.az.crime.immigrants.cnn?hpt=C2)


I agree that the bill as written does allow for a lot of discrimination, and it's no surprise the amount of broad language contained within. I don't think that any cops are going to actually get sued (how often do you witness people getting arrested anyway? But yeah that is a really stupid clause to put in there), but even if they do, keep in mind the thing I mentioned earlier, that there's such a huge (legal) Latino population in Arizona that the shit would really hit the fan should any of these nightmare discrimination scenarios really happen. If police start using this bill to take out their hidden racist impulses I think that it will be repealed fast. Oddly enough I still have faith in the American people and our system.

I realize that the 'one kidnapping per day' stat is misleading, and that's the way it is in Mexico too, but it's not an excuse to just let it slide. Even if the kidnapees ARE involved with the druglords, it's not like they deserve to die; same with the illegals. Secondly, I do believe a lot of innocents are getting kidnapped and ransomed, because I've heard a lot of stuff firsthand. It's not as though Arizona is unsafe but I can see their tolerance for this sort of thing wearing thin. As for a drug-violence related bill; what do you propose? It's not like they haven't been trying to fight this for years...

The all-or-nothing argument does apply to this bill, even if it doesn't really apply to the issue at hand which is immigration in general. We need to fix this system and deal with the problem up front instead of passing laws like this one; on that I agree. But given the absence of any type of immigration reform, I do understand a bill like this. Clearly the AZ government sees illegals as a problem, and I don't believe it's because "they hate Mexicans over there". Most likely because they do abuse our health care system and don't pay taxes (yes, I know that some do pay taxes). I know that many of them are just earnest, hard-working people that are good for our economy, but the question then is, why have the law at all? If I put on a blue jersey and started working at Wal-Mart without being hired would I not be arrested regardless of whether or not I was helping?

Look, it's clear there's a problem here...70% of Arizonans support the law, and it's a clear mistake to just say "well, they're all uneducated and racist". And this is in a state with a huge population of Latinos! They're better educated than you think.