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cacophony
06-14-2009, 03:51 PM
poor world forum. i can remember a time when there would already be a 7 page thread on this.

i thought this video was amazing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WU-cxEEJ-E

the page i found this on had this description:

On the rooftops in Tehran, people sounding out into the night “God is Great,” the same chant that sparked the revolution in 1979, only now with a decidedly different subtext.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-14-2009, 04:52 PM
It's, like, America 2004.

Strangelet
06-14-2009, 06:36 PM
oh yeah jOHN? and how is it like america 2004? because they are both election years? for presidents? breathtakingly astute. maybe bother yourself to see some of the differences, eh?

such as...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w6rWdrPTbE&feature=channel


these twitters


Hospitals around Tehran surrounded by secret police who refuse to let people with injuries get through, humanity at its worst #iranelectionabout 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2171396138) from web
Hospitals around Tehran are surrounded by security forces who refuse to let those with injuries pass, humanity at its worst #iranelectionabout 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2171375919) from web
Friend: 17 y/o killed infront of me couldn't get to him in time guards beating us up went to hospital but he stopped moving #iranelectionabout 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2171363858) from web
RT @mousavi1388 (http://twitter.com/mousavi1388) Mousavi asks his supporters to protest throughout Iran from 4pm on Monday (in Tehran Enghelab Sq. to Azadi Sq.)#IranElectionabout 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2171317599) from web
RT @dailydish (http://twitter.com/dailydish): Is This Where We're Headed?: A photo of a student beaten by police in Shiraz. http://tinyurl.com/mxdue3about 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2171107037) from web
Unconf.: Mousavi is in hiding in Karaj, can anyone confirm this? #iranelection #mousaviabout 1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/IranElection09/status/2170990760) from web
“[We] are still safe, but to tell you the truth, all of us are feeling sick of what we have to see on streets these days. This afternoon, [we] saw five policemen attack a middle age lady. They beat her brutally, with no mercy. She tried to escape with her young daughter but they got her. I stopped and tried to help her, but three men in civilian clothes attacked my car, and I had to drive away because [my daughter] was with me. Tonight, people shouted “Allah o Akabar” from their roof tops, but hundreds of police forces on bikes swept the streets and marked houses from which they could hear voices.


My Father has a truck load of ballot boxes that were to be burned in the back of his truck.

i eats some pills and wanna sleep and i scared that if they can find me ...i going...thx for your supports....

typing as fastest as I can in bth English&Farsi,Still we need outside help,I really don't want to be captured by Ansar
Once again I thank everyone in the world. No matter if Ahmadi stays or not, I'm proud to have clasped such supportive hands.

URGENT JUST IN, there r TANKS in front of the interior ministry of tehran in valiasr st. & fatemi CAREFUL

I can't find my friends on streets.
Rasht, glass splinters on the streets, riot police not hesitating to beat men, women and even kids
From Enghelab Sq friend just call me, Police & unknown forces beating everybody for no apparent reason!
Correction, no bus burned, but three cars.
dawn is breaking. can hear prayers from mosques.

cousin in tehran is traumatized by the club and baton beatings on tehran streets. eyewitness report of a girl beaten to death.
IRG's helicopter flying low on yousefabadad Amirabad Gisha right now creating a devastating sound and making windows shake
sources from Tehran: ppl are killed, ppl are in blood, tehran is hell.
We witnessed police spraying pepper gas into the eyes of peaceful female protesters
We are here in the dark, all kinds of rumors fly by; nothing is sure.
IRIB TV warned people seriously about going to tomorrow's rally, mobile network might be down for tomorrow's rally.

Strangelet
06-14-2009, 06:54 PM
more police brutality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttxINV_EF50

meanwhile, right now cnn has been doing two hours of relooping an EXCLUSIVE!!!! 2008 larry king interview with ahmadinijad. like who gives a fuck?

Rog
06-15-2009, 08:17 AM
why does none of this suprise me:(

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-15-2009, 08:50 AM
oh yeah jOHN? and how is it like america 2004?




It's like America 2004 in regards to who voted who into office. It's not rocket science, Strangelet.

It's like America 2004, with the economy tanking, but the ultra-conservative side keeps singing, "Here we come to save the day."

I can do some more it you'd like.

Shall we get into the America style of voilence? And I'm not talking about the war in Iraqi.

cacophony
06-15-2009, 05:00 PM
ugh. an empty glib response to a serious issue.


there's such an immediacy and urgency to the situation as read on twitter and viewed on youtube. big media is right to be scared of the internet. if left to their glossy-haired, glossy-faced coverage we might just blow it off as yet another conflict in a part of the world we're none too fond of.

the tweets and the video uploads, though, humanize it. people are angry and suffering and the distance between us and them feels like it's shrunk from miles to inches.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-15-2009, 06:37 PM
ugh. an empty glib response to a serious issue.


there's such an immediacy and urgency to the situation as read on twitter and viewed on youtube. big media is right to be scared of the internet. if left to their glossy-haired, glossy-faced coverage we might just blow it off as yet another conflict in a part of the world we're none too fond of.

the tweets and the video uploads, though, humanize it. people are angry and suffering and the distance between us and them feels like it's shrunk from miles to inches.

Mine or Strangelet's?

cacophony
06-16-2009, 06:07 AM
you can help. (http://reinikainen.co.uk/2009/06/iranelection-cyberwar-guide-for-beginners/)

BeautifulBurnout
06-16-2009, 10:48 AM
Linky not working, Cacophony...

I was looking for other youtubes and there seems to be a large number that have been removed/blocked. One thing is for sure - Ahmadinejad's days are numbered after this. Whatever the outcome, a government that will attack its own people in this way cannot hold a mandate for long.

cured
06-16-2009, 12:14 PM
I get most of my updates from Andrew Sullivan's blog. He's really taking this thing head on:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/

Twitter updates from Iran:

http://twitter.com/IranElection
http://twitter.com/StopAhmadi
http://twitter.com/iran09

Some knowledge dropped by Reza Aslan here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-15/irans-military-coup/

This is one of those moments in time we'll remember years from now. The question is: how will it all be decided? Will the clerical rule be discarded in favor of something else? Now that everyone is watching (and Iran is frantically trying to shut down just about every form of communication), how does the ruling class react? How will the beating and killing of their own population serve their future?

One thing I read, and can see happening, is the ruling class will magically recalibrate the vote totals to where Ahmedinejad doesn't win by more than a few percentage points but keeps his 50% majority, then offer up a few scapegoats to the mob. What really needs to happen, though, is for the proof to be found that the ballots with Moussavi's hole punched in them have been or are being destroyed. That's all you'd really need to carry this thing through.

it's at the same time marvelous to see the people of Iran, a nation that is incredibly hostile towards most parts of the world, standing up for something in a way nobody would. Who would subject themselves to possible beatings and death over a stolen election? This is recent history for us, circa 2000.

It's good to see the revolting spirit lives on, and especially nice to see that it lives on in Iran.

Obama has been pretty quiet about this. I'm sure he understands that taking sides in this matter can really just serve to subvert the message of these protesters but at the same time he can't ignore it. In that sense, bravo for having the Twitter maintenance suspended (it was scheduled to happen last night):

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSWBT01137420090616

cacophony
06-16-2009, 05:02 PM
Linky not working, Cacophony...
he either went way over his bandwidth or he took the page down. it was a list of ways you can use twitter to help protect people who are using the service to get messages out of iran. the government is currently blocking IPs and using hashtags to identify people and track them down. one of the suggestions was to go into twitter and change your location information to tehran to help muddy the waters.

chuck
06-17-2009, 02:40 AM
If you're able - and I'd assume have a static IP - this link is handy.

Setting up an anonymous proxy for Iranians (http://extrafuture.com/2009/06/15/how-to-set-up-an-anonymous-proxy-for-iranians-using-squid-on-mac-os-x/)

It is instructions for a Mac - but has a link to instructions for people running Windows.

chuck
06-17-2009, 02:57 AM
And you know - just in case you need a bit of a laugh, here's Fox & Friends trying to discuss the situation (http://gawker.com/5292562/fox--friends-bunch-is-thinking-hard-about-the-iran-election-thing). Or something.

And yeah - I'd never thought about those long names....

I'd laugh if I didn't know that several million get their news from those guys.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-17-2009, 03:02 AM
And you know - just in case you need a bit of a laugh, here's Fox & Friends trying to discuss the situation (http://gawker.com/5292562/fox--friends-bunch-is-thinking-hard-about-the-iran-election-thing). Or something.

And yeah - I'd never thought about those long names....

I'd laugh if I didn't know that several million get their news from those guys.


Helloooo vodka advertisment guy.

Sean
06-17-2009, 11:19 AM
It's amazing how modern technology is so blatantly countering the government's attempts at suppression of information. Gives me some new hope for the future...

cacophony
06-17-2009, 06:05 PM
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20115702b8e10970c-800wi

dubman
06-18-2009, 03:47 AM
THAT STUFF IS ALL POTATOSHOPPED

oh wait...

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/17/ahmadinijad-sucks-at.html

Deckard
06-18-2009, 07:04 AM
Thought it was UW@Tehran.

King of Snake
06-18-2009, 11:36 AM
would be cool but no dancing in public allowed in Iran :(

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-18-2009, 12:10 PM
Don't see you guys getting banned and shit for throwing off the topic. TFu?

Deckard
06-18-2009, 02:32 PM
It's all about balance, jr. ;)

I have a lot of thoughts buzzing around my head about this (Iran) but time constraints mean I really shouldn't get into it too heavily until I get some free time next week.

Suffice to say, while there's obviously a lot more angles to this than the American politics angle, I have to say I think Obama is playing this just right.

A taster of how McCain might have fugged it all up...

"[Obama] should speak out that this is a corrupt, fraud, sham of an election," said McCain, Obama's opponent in last year's presidential election. "The Iranian people have been deprived of their rights."

"I think it's possible to engage. But item number one is giving the Iranian people a free and fair election," [McCain] said.

Mmmm, right. "Mousavi and the opposition movement are no more than America's poodles" they'd be shouting.

Nothing galvanizes a country like a common enemy. (It's worth recalling how a wingnut like Ahmadinejad got elected in the first place)

Thank Christ McCain isn't in the White House right now.

EDIT: Ayatollah: 'Iran's Enemies Are Targeting Us' (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Iran-Supreme-Leader-Ayatollah-Ali-Khamenei-Addresses-Nation-After-Protests-Over-Election-Result/Article/200906315312077?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15312077_Iran%3A_Supreme_Leader_Ayatol lah_Ali_Khamenei_Addresses_Nation_After_Protests_O ver_Election_Result)
Ok, perhaps his words would have resonated with a greater majority of the Iranian public had McCain been issuing condemnations. Or perhaps I'm just kidding myself.

Strangelet
06-19-2009, 08:14 AM
Suffice to say, while there's obviously a lot more angles to this than the American politics angle, I have to say I think Obama is playing this just right.

Like the Iranians will just stop what they are doing and exclaim "So remember that western power that gave us the shah out of their own economic self interest and used our freedoms as a pawn in a battle with another eastern power? They have a new conviction about how we should run our country. Hooray for us."

This isn't just another news story. This is man on the moon, berlin wall kind of shit. Here's a country locked in one of the most theocratic strongholds of the world, rising up almost spontaneously and unanimously and everyone thinks this has enough traction to work.

This is why it will work and why the rest of the middle east continues to wallow in the morrass of their own oppresion and corruption. This movement has specific incremental goals. They want more money to trickle down from the oil exports like its done in every other opec country. They want fair elections. Full stop. They are not demanding the overthrow of the government. THey are not justifying murder for some glorious cause. They are not following the dictates of a religious hack, telling them Allah won't give them blessings until they usher in the government of sharia law.

cured
06-19-2009, 08:47 AM
Khamenei may have sealed his doom with his speech today. He just gave the bird to the protesters.

Sean
06-19-2009, 11:42 AM
Khamenei may have sealed his doom with his speech today. He just gave the bird to the protesters.It really struck me as a flagrantly strategic move on his part to try to regain control of the situation regardless of who's right or wrong. I don't believe for a second that Khamenei believes this was a "definitive victory" for Ahmadinejad, otherwise he wouldn't have called for an investigation into the election process a few days ago.

What an incredible process to be witnessing. I really hope it pays off for the Iranian people....

cured
06-19-2009, 12:44 PM
C'mon Sean, what do you think of the "investigation"? Here's the problems with that:

1) Ballots were most likely destroyed, if not stored elsewhere
2) Who would conduct the recount, if there is one? Surely the same people who counted them in the first place, right?
3) Who does it serve if the investigation/recount turned up a different winner? There'd be widespread chaos. At worst, Ahmedinejad would lose a chunk of percentage points but remain comfortably over 50%.

I believe Khamenei has really misjudged this situation and is flailing at focusing the blame elsewhere. By directing some of it on the protesters, it only serves to prove, in their minds, that what they're doing is right and they need to push on.

If Khamenei wants to survive this process, he'll have to make a lot of concessions, but at this point I don't think he can do enough to reverse his stature, based on his last 2 speeches.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-20-2009, 11:23 AM
C'mon Sean, what do you think of the "investigation"? Here's the problems with that:

1) Ballots were most likely destroyed, if not stored elsewhere
2) Who would conduct the recount, if there is one? Surely the same people who counted them in the first place, right?
3) Who does it serve if the investigation/recount turned up a different winner? There'd be widespread chaos. At worst, Ahmedinejad would lose a chunk of percentage points but remain comfortably over 50%.

I believe Khamenei has really misjudged this situation and is flailing at focusing the blame elsewhere. By directing some of it on the protesters, it only serves to prove, in their minds, that what they're doing is right and they need to push on.

If Khamenei wants to survive this process, he'll have to make a lot of concessions, but at this point I don't think he can do enough to reverse his stature, based on his last 2 speeches.

The round of applause chanting, "Death to America, Death to America" and "Death to Isreal, Death to Isreal" could not help too much either.

bryantm3
06-20-2009, 02:23 PM
It's like America 2004 in regards to who voted who into office. It's not rocket science, Strangelet.

It's like America 2004, with the economy tanking, but the ultra-conservative side keeps singing, "Here we come to save the day."

I can do some more it you'd like.

Shall we get into the America style of voilence? And I'm not talking about the war in Iraqi.

unlike ahmadinijad, bush was fairly elected in 2004. also unlike the 2004 election, we didn't have a theocratic power falsifying the election results and supressing free speech. btw, the economy was relatively stable in the US in 2004. this is nothing like 2004.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-20-2009, 03:17 PM
unlike ahmadinijad, bush was fairly elected in 2004...

After being unfairly elected in 2000, depending on what part of history one chooses to look at.

also unlike the 2004 election, ... and supressing free speech...

No, just a few years later we got it full throttle in the face and many will still deny that. Depending on what part of history one chooses to look at.


Have you heard the DJ mixes coming out of projektion.com? My god, they are GOOD!


btw, the economy was relatively stable in the US in 2004. this is nothing like 2004.

No, it wasn't. Is just appeared to be stable and some people(turned out to be quite alot this go round) only believe what they see even if what they see is lies. Depending on what part of history one chooses to look at.

cacophony
06-22-2009, 12:20 PM
hey john, i think your sentiments would be more welcome over here:

http://hoekstraisameme.com/

the home of every stupidly hyperbolic "....this is just like iran" statement

cacophony
06-22-2009, 12:22 PM
p.s. here's a very graphic video of a 20 year old girl in iran, shot to death by police for daring to participate in a protest. let me repeat, it's graphic. use your own discretion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbdEf0QRsLM

is this like the US in 2004, john?

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-22-2009, 01:08 PM
You're cross-culture referencing. In America, we just use humane tazers on people we want to shut up. Or bean pellets(ooooh! the irony on that one!) on peaceful protestors.

I never said identical. I have no problem you cannot relate to the similarities(sp?, just looks wrong). Others are getting it. Oh well.

Sean
06-22-2009, 03:21 PM
C'mon Sean, what do you think of the "investigation"?

Here's the problems with that:

1) Ballots were most likely destroyed, if not stored elsewhere
2) Who would conduct the recount, if there is one? Surely the same people who counted them in the first place, right?
3) Who does it serve if the investigation/recount turned up a different winner? There'd be widespread chaos. At worst, Ahmedinejad would lose a chunk of percentage points but remain comfortably over 50%.

I believe Khamenei has really misjudged this situation and is flailing at focusing the blame elsewhere. By directing some of it on the protesters, it only serves to prove, in their minds, that what they're doing is right and they need to push on.

If Khamenei wants to survive this process, he'll have to make a lot of concessions, but at this point I don't think he can do enough to reverse his stature, based on his last 2 speeches.I was only commenting on the strategy of Khamenei's sudden proclamation that it was a "definitive victory" for Ahmadinejad only days after he called for an investigation into the election results. As for the investigation itself and how fruitful/effective/legitimate it would be, who really knows? The level of corruption involved in Iran (as in most places) is pretty insurmountable, so I doubt it would lead to any honest, constructive conclusions. I basically agree with everything you've said here.

cacophony
06-22-2009, 04:04 PM
You're cross-culture referencing. In America, we just use humane tazers on people we want to shut up. Or bean pellets(ooooh! the irony on that one!) on peaceful protestors.

I never said identical. I have no problem you cannot relate to the similarities(sp?, just looks wrong). Others are getting it. Oh well.
i simply find it as distasteful as the GOP rep who said what the folks in iran are experiencing is like the GOP having to struggle as a minority party.

it trivializes what, for many many people, is literally life and death.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-22-2009, 04:08 PM
I'd make a joke here, as I do to keep discussions from raging into something they're not, but I'll maintain.

I still stand by all I've said.

Sean
06-24-2009, 10:08 AM
I'd make a joke here, as I do to keep discussions from raging into something they're not, but I'll maintain.

I still stand by all I've said.
Yeah....I remember when stuff like this CNN video was happening in the US in 2004 (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/06/24/rowlands.us.iran.arrivals.cnn). Oh wait, no I don't.

But this sounds like a description of the US in 2004...

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/24/iran.election/index.html) -- Security forces wielding clubs and firing weapons beat back demonstrators who flocked to a Tehran square Wednesday to continue protests, with one witness saying security forces beat people like "animals."

At least two sources described wild and violent conditions at a part of Tehran where protesters had planned to demonstrate.

"They were waiting for us," the source said. "They all have guns and riot uniforms. It was like a mouse trap."

"I see many people with broken arms, legs, heads -- blood everywhere -- pepper gas like war," the source said.

About "500 thugs" with clubs came out of a mosque and attacked people in the square, another source said.

The security forces were "beating women madly" and "killing people like hell," the source said.

"They beat up a woman so bad, she was all bloody," the source said in a description that underscores the growing and central role of women in the uprising.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

What's going on in Iran, to me, looks to be headed towards flat-out revolution. The horrifically violent crackdowns don't seem to be doing anything to stop protests, only solidifying opposition. I'd be posting more in this thread, but all I can seem to do is just sit and try to soak in everything that's happening there. It's absolute craziness. As I mentioned before, I just wonder how much of this police state behavior would have been hidden to the world had it happened just a few years ago, before it was so easy for individuals to spread videos, photos and messages around the planet.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 11:17 AM
Do you remember a boy getting his head taken off with a machette whilste(oooops, spelt that wrong) on bus ride to Canada?

No, you voted Republican and it keeps coming back to everyone that many who did vote that route, do not remember (or recall) much.

Lots more reminders, when needed.

myrrh
06-24-2009, 12:16 PM
It certainly is interesting what is happening there.

I really have no opinion, other than violence against the protesters is wrong.

I am against protesting, as I view it as really just a lesser form of terrorism. Nor do I think that protesting is a right or anything like that. So with this in mind, the government there can just say that protesting is illegal, since it is their country, and then do whatever they want to end the protesting.

I am not really for the current regime, but even Time said that he most likely won the election, it was just that it would have been close enough to have a run-off, which then his opponents would have teamed up against him, and he may have lost.

dubman
06-24-2009, 12:18 PM
"and heeere come the pretzels..."

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 12:29 PM
(enters FodderFiddler)


"Always the poet, you are."


That "i" word again: http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/memory+like+an+elephant.html

Sean
06-24-2009, 02:58 PM
Do you remember a boy getting his head taken off with a machette whilste(oooops, spelt that wrong) on bus ride to Canada?I'm guessing the killing you're referencing wasn't government sponsored. There's absolutely no correlation between random acts of violence by random people and organized efforts by the Iranian government to suppress thousands of demonstrators with the use of deadly force. The fact that you're trying to draw some kind of equivalency between these two stories only highlights the fact that your point is baseless.

No, you voted Republican and it keeps coming back to everyone that many who did vote that route, do not remember (or recall) much.Well how can I argue with undeniable brilliance like this? :rolleyes:

Lots more reminders, when needed.If they're as irrelevant as the ones you've already cited, then please save your breath.

Sean
06-24-2009, 03:05 PM
I am against protesting, as I view it as really just a lesser form of terrorism. Nor do I think that protesting is a right or anything like that. So with this in mind, the government there can just say that protesting is illegal, since it is their country, and then do whatever they want to end the protesting.How is protesting a lesser form of terrorism? And isn't Iran already doing "whatever they want" to end the protesting - essentially through straight up terrorism against their own citizens? And isn't that exactly why the protesters are continuing to protest?

I am not really for the current regime, but even Time said that he most likely won the election, it was just that it would have been close enough to have a run-off, which then his opponents would have teamed up against him, and he may have lost.This may be, but it doesn't justify the likely vote tampering that took place. The protesters have undeniable justification in speaking out against what's happened and what is happening now.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 03:09 PM
OOOOh, the random word. Keep trying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfrqySjEDxs

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 03:30 PM
I'm guessing the killing you're referencing wasn't government sponsored. There's absolutely no correlation between random acts of violence by random people and organized efforts by the Iranian government to suppress thousands of demonstrators with the use of deadly force. The fact that you're trying to draw some kind of equivalency between these two stories only highlights the fact that your point is baseless.

Well how can I argue with undeniable brilliance like this? :rolleyes:

If they're as irrelevant as the ones you've already cited, then please save your breath.



& I will re-reiterate:


I never said identical. I have no problem you cannot relate to the similarities(sp?, just looks wrong). Others are getting it. Oh well.

Sean
06-24-2009, 04:00 PM
& I will re-reiterate:John, someone's murder at the hands of a single crazy person with a machete isn't even similar to the Iranian government's violent suppression of thousands of protesters....or at least not beyond the fact that both stories involve fatalities. But then by that logic, the U.S. today is even worse than what's happening in Iran, because we have a LOT more traffic accident fatalities than they have deaths by government suppression.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 04:16 PM
Sean, there was nothing random about it.

dubman
06-24-2009, 06:29 PM
sorry, when did reading, much less replying to one of John's posts become not a complete waste of time? you do know that he never has a real argument for anything.

thought everyone knew better and had him on ignore by now.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 06:47 PM
Truth hurts, don't it? It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

We've just reached a new high. Or low. Or something.

Denial's some peoples' best friend forever.

Sean
06-24-2009, 07:44 PM
sorry, when did reading, much less replying to one of John's posts become not a complete waste of time? you do know that he never has a real argument for anything.

thought everyone knew better and had him on ignore by now.You are absolutely right. He's still the sole member on my ignore list, but every now and again, I click "view post". And even then, I've made it a general point to not bother replying. Not sure why I decided to give it a shot this time, but I did. Guess I needed a reminder as to why he's a waste of every second I've used replying.

Thanks for the kick in the rear dubman. Someone let me know if he ever posts a legitimate response....

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-24-2009, 07:49 PM
Do your own homework Sean. I've no time for blind, ignorant pride.*

You've been wrong with so many of your opinions on this board, I do ignore you. The only time I've responded to your posts has been when you've tried to...cannot come up with the right word for this at the moment...my posts. Maybe I'll come back to it.

& again, I've never been speaking to you who never understands a thing I say. Others do. Oh well.


*if this sentence looks off, I was responding to Sean's suggestion to make some points as to how certain aspects of America's recent past horrific events correlate to what is occurring in Iran which appears to have been deleted. Nevermind(j/k), the couple of posts which already do this, apparently as he has.

Sean
06-25-2009, 11:47 AM
So now, as his government continues to make activists disappear (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/06/24/iran.activist.arrest/index.html) and reportedly beat protesters "like animals" (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/24/iran.election/index.html?iref=mpstoryview), Ahmadinejad has taken to lecturing Obama for using such vile tactics as a harsh "tone" (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE55N24020090625). The attempts by the Iranian government to deflect criticism of it's own actions onto Britain and the U.S. have been so pitiful that I wonder who it is they think they may be convincing with them?

It's difficult to imagine what's going to happen when all of this is over.

cacophony
06-25-2009, 12:19 PM
just tossing it out there for discussion;

let's say in the last US election the mccain supporters decided to protest and set things on fire in the street (as many pieces of footage have shown). how do you think the US gov't would react?

Sean
06-25-2009, 12:34 PM
just tossing it out there for discussion;

let's say in the last US election the mccain supporters decided to protest and set things on fire in the street (as many pieces of footage have shown). how do you think the US gov't would react?Depends on the scope and violence of the protests of course, but I would assume arrests, maybe tear gas, things along those lines.

But making activists disappear as I linked earlier? Probably not. Or assigning someone like Saaed Mortazavi, aka “the butcher of the press” thanks to his involvement in the torture, rape and killing of a detained photographer back in 2003 to interrogating arrested protesters? I don't think so. Or unleashing hundreds of violent, government sponsored fundamentalists onto the streets with clubs, axes and various weapons to quell non-violent protests? I'd say no to that too.

If Iran was simply trying to maintain order with their actions, then that's one thing. And frankly, even if that was the case, there'd probably some random instances of unnecessary violence thanks to the fact that there will always be some bad eggs on both sides of a large stand-off. But that's not what Iran is trying to do. They're actively suppressing the voices of the Iranian people through violence and terror, period.

How would you answer your own question?

cacophony
06-25-2009, 12:44 PM
i think if we were talking apples and apples, meaning the scale of the protests were the same and a minority of people were lighting things on fire and smashing things our gov't would send in the national guard behind beefed up police forces.

i also think that under GWB's watch protesters would have disappeared, charged with violations of the patriot act, which makes it legal for the gov't to hold you indefinitely and makes it illegal for you to discuss the terms of your detainment.

i'm just mulling it over in my head but it feels like we're very outraged at the iranian gov't and just a few years ago we lived with an administration that would have been happy to do the same.

on the other hand, i feel like the cantankerous nature of the legislative and judicial branches and that "checks and balances" concept makes it unlikely that the clamp-down would go unpunished. but then...... a lot of things went unpunished under GWB, and will likely never be made right.

i don't know. it's so hard to know how accurate any of the reporting is from iran. it's all anecdotal self-reporitng from those few people who can get footage out of the country. an analysis of the twitter "revolution" showed that it was actually just a handful of people tweeting about the situation and a lot of other people re-tweeting or talking about the original posts. it's hard to get a clear view of what exactly is going on. people can't even agree whether neda was a protestor, a bystander, if she was shot by cops, or by a sniper.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-25-2009, 12:47 PM
Neda appears to have been a victim of a botched terrorist organization's hit.

HMM.

Sean
06-25-2009, 03:12 PM
i think if we were talking apples and apples, meaning the scale of the protests were the same and a minority of people were lighting things on fire and smashing things our gov't would send in the national guard behind beefed up police forces.Probably so.

i also think that under GWB's watch protesters would have disappeared, charged with violations of the patriot act, which makes it legal for the gov't to hold you indefinitely and makes it illegal for you to discuss the terms of your detainment.While this is a possibility, would you put it on a comparable level to what's happening in Iran now? Reporters Without Borders' count puts the number of detained reporters since the election in Iran at 34, supposedly 70 professors were detained for having met with Mousavi (although the source on this is Mousavi himself, so we can take that with a grain of salt), along with estimates of hundreds of protesters who have been detained - and it's probably fair to say that a fair number of them weren't detained due to their violent behavior.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any example of comparable, contemporary stories here in the States, despite the obvious, troubling faults in the Patriot Act. And that can probably be largely attributed to the fact that while we have surely been subject to election fraud here, it's not been as big and blatant as what appears to have happened in Iran to spark these protests. So there's yet another difference

i'm just mulling it over in my head but it feels like we're very outraged at the iranian gov't and just a few years ago we lived with an administration that would have been happy to do the same.I've never been on board with attributing this level of maliciousness to the Bush administration. Inept and wrong-headed, yes. Dancing on the line of heading in this direction, quite possibly. But actually saying they would've been "happy to do the same"? No.

on the other hand, i feel like the cantankerous nature of the legislative and judicial branches and that "checks and balances" concept makes it unlikely that the clamp-down would go unpunished. but then...... a lot of things went unpunished under GWB, and will likely never be made right.And there's yet another crucial difference between the situations here and there. In Iran, the checks and balances come down to the Ayatollah and the clerical assembly that undemocratically selects him and has the power to replace him at will.

i don't know. it's so hard to know how accurate any of the reporting is from iran.That alone highlights a world of difference if we're focussing on how comparable the situations would be. The blatant suppression of the press began before the results of the election (http://www.opednews.com/populum/diarypage.php?did=13474) were even available. The Bush administration (and Republican party in general) was certainly no fan of or supporter of the U.S. press, but this kind of suppression would simply not be tolerated here.

it's all anecdotal self-reporitng from those few people who can get footage out of the country. an analysis of the twitter "revolution" showed that it was actually just a handful of people tweeting about the situation and a lot of other people re-tweeting or talking about the original posts. it's hard to get a clear view of what exactly is going on.Even if the "twitter revolution" wasn't as big as once thought, it's extremely telling that it, along with eyewitness accounts through various other sources, is our only source of information out of the country aside from state sponsored news that showed only celebrations for a victorious Ahmadinejad. Even his opponent Mousavi's own newspaper has been shut down (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8118783.stm) by the government.

people can't even agree whether neda was a protestor, a bystander, if she was shot by cops, or by a sniper.Well, Iran's government claims it was some separatist group (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/24/iran.neda.death/index.html) who shot her with the intent of blaming the government. So far, the Iranian government's been trying to shift the blame for everything they've done to someone else, and there's no reason for me to think the same isn't happening here. And yet again, the difficulty in getting any information out of the country thanks to government crackdowns is probably largely to blame for our inability to get clear answers about her shooting.

And all that being said, when things tipped too far to the right, we went ahead and elected a Democratic black man named Barack Hussein Obama to take the reigns.

To me, when the differences in every point raised are so glaring and easily illustrated, I find it impossible to claim any significant similarities between the situations.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Think: C.I.A. operatives Mama. Not just the two named in America's all right media, but all those who worked along side them.

cacophony
06-25-2009, 04:56 PM
oh who can think about the elections in iran now that michael jackson is gone? we've got REAL PROBLEMS here to worry about! don't believe me, check out the CNN homepage!

*weeping* *wailing* *gnashing teeth*

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-25-2009, 05:04 PM
oh who can think about the elections in iran now that michael jackson is gone? we've got REAL PROBLEMS here to worry about! don't believe me, check out the CNN homepage!

*weeping* *wailing* *gnashing teeth*

Possible homocide hasn't been ruled out yet.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-25-2009, 07:37 PM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/29/2555880.htm


OOOPS! Wrong Argentina stroy!

myrrh
06-25-2009, 09:46 PM
How is protesting a lesser form of terrorism? And isn't Iran already doing "whatever they want" to end the protesting - essentially through straight up terrorism against their own citizens? And isn't that exactly why the protesters are continuing to protest?

This may be, but it doesn't justify the likely vote tampering that took place. The protesters have undeniable justification in speaking out against what's happened and what is happening now.


Protesting is a lesser form of terrorism in the fact that the purpose of terrorism is to displace the everyday life of normal civilians. So when things have to shut down due to a protest taking place, it is a lesser form of terrorism. For example, if a man has a deli on a street where there just happens to be a protest on today, and no one can come to his deli, and he loses all his business that day, then in effect those protesters were disrupting the normal flow of daily society, and this, to me, is a lesser form of terrorism.

And the protesters may have justification in speaking out against what is happening, but the reality is it wouldn't be happening, if they weren't protesting.

//\/\/
06-26-2009, 01:22 AM
that's just bullshit. using the word 'terrorism' and watering it down with 'lesser form' detracts from terrorism itself. by calling everybody some sort of terrorist, you undermine the negative essence of the association. in that sense, you're as bad as any number of right-wingers who slap the label on anybody who opposes them as it's a hard word to argue against. it's intellectual dishonesty of the highest order.

Deckard
06-26-2009, 02:34 AM
Well said //\/\/

cured
06-26-2009, 08:29 AM
Michael Jackson died to a shot of Demerol, it seems. Of course it deserves front page billing, it hits all the major news elements in one fell swoop, plus he happened to be the biggest thing in the 1980s.

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-26-2009, 10:59 AM
He kinda, like, a lessor form of terrorism too:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/06/26/michael.jackson.internet/index.html

Sean
06-26-2009, 11:16 AM
Protesting is a lesser form of terrorism in the fact that the purpose of terrorism is to displace the everyday life of normal civilians. So when things have to shut down due to a protest taking place, it is a lesser form of terrorism. For example, if a man has a deli on a street where there just happens to be a protest on today, and no one can come to his deli, and he loses all his business that day, then in effect those protesters were disrupting the normal flow of daily society, and this, to me, is a lesser form of terrorism.I've gotta say, I'm with Ian and Deckard on this. By your reasoning, the farmer's market that happens every Tuesday evening by my work that cuts off easy access to a few local restaurants would also qualify as a "lesser form of terrorism".

And the protesters may have justification in speaking out against what is happening, but the reality is it wouldn't be happening, if they weren't protesting.This, I simply disagree with. Number one, none of this would be happening if the elections had been held in a way that didn't suggest such strong implications of vote tampering. That - not the protests - is what's at the root of the whole issue.

Number two, this wouldn't have become such an international point of contention if the Iranian government hadn't responded to the protests with such outrageous violence.

And third, I agree that the protesters are justified in speaking out, so in my opinion, they should have a forum available to them to voice their concerns. That forum has traditionally been through peaceful protests. Would you have people with justified issues be silenced and forced to just accept the situation as it is, with no avenue for attempting to affect change available to them?

Sean
06-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Lots of updates in this article (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D992DNJO0&show_article=1). Some excerpts:

Iranian authorities have barred journalists for international news organizations from reporting on the streets and ordered them to stay in their offices. This report is based on the accounts of witnesses reached in Iran and official statements carried on Iranian media.

A leading cleric demanded in a nationally broadcast sermon Friday that leaders of the unrest be punished harshly and said some are "worthy of execution."

The official Web site of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi, his main tool of communicating with his supporters, was hacked Friday, leaving it blank

In Friday's central Muslim sermon at Tehran University, a senior cleric, Ayatollah Ahmed Khatami, called for harsh retribution for dissent. "Anybody who fights against the Islamic system or the leader of Islamic society, fight him until complete destruction,"

Khatami said those who disturbed the peace and destroyed public property were "at war with God," and said they should be "dealt with without mercy."

"In this unrest, Britons have behaved very mischievously and it is fair to add the slogan of down with England to slogan of down with USA," he said, as his remarks were interrupted by worshippers' chants of "Death to Israel."

In London, Dr. Arash Hejazi, who said he tried to save Soltan as the young woman bled to death, told the BBC she apparently was shot by a member of the Basij militia. Protesters spotted an armed member of the Basij militia on a motorcycle, and stopped and disarmed him, the doctor said. The man appeared to admit shooting Soltan, shouting "I didn't want to kill her," but the furious protesters confiscated his identity card and took photographs of him before letting him go, Hejazi said.

Khamenei has ordered a large security detail around Mousavi—ostensibly to protect him, but presumably also to restrict his movements. Authorities have also targeted those close to Mousavi.

At least 11 Mousavi campaign workers and 25 staffers on his newspaper have been detained since the election.

On Wednesday, 70 university professors were detained immediately after meeting with the opposition leader. All but four have been released. Those still in custody included Qorban Behzadiannejad, Mousavi's former campaign manager.


And this (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/27/world/middleeast/27iran.html?_r=1&hp) since we were talking about the review of complaints about the election earlier in this thread:

...authorities have repeatedly dismissed the opposition complaints. In remarks quoted on the official IRNA news agency on Friday, Abbas-Ali Kadkhodaei, a spokesman for the 12-member Guardian Council charged with vetting elections, said the panel had “almost finished reviewing defeated candidates’ election complaints,” which the council said earlier numbered in excess of 600.

“The reviews showed that the election was the healthiest since the revolution,” Mr. Kadkhodaei said. “There were no major violations in the election.”

Well if they say so, then surely it must be true....

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
06-27-2009, 03:59 PM
http://ukinet.com/nyt-2005-04-04.htm

But you didn't hear about it from me.

& I'm not sayin' horny coked up MF is a nazi, but horny coked up MF sho' nuff got played by some of 'em.

Sean
07-17-2009, 09:21 AM
It's certainly not over yet. Here's a new story out of Iran (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99GA1AO3&show_article=1):

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Tens of thousands of government opponents packed Iran's main Islamic prayer service Friday, chanting "freedom, freedom" and other slogans as their top clerical backer Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani delivered a sermon bluntly criticizing the country's leadership over the crackdown on election protests.

Outside, police and pro-government Basiji militiamen fired tear gas and charged thousands of protesters who chanted "death to the dictator" and called on President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to resign. Dozens were arrested, piled in trucks and taken away, witnesses said.

And here's the latest screed from Ahmadinejad (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSDAH65258120090716?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true):

Iranian leaders often refer to the United States and its allies as the "global arrogance."

"As soon as the new government is established, with power and authority, ten times more than before, it will enter the global scene and will bring down the global arrogance," he told a big crowd in the northeastern city of Mashhad.

"They should wait as a new wave of revolutionary thinking ... from the Iranian nation is on the way and we will not allow the arrogant (powers) to even have one night of good sleep," Ahmadinejad said, according to state broadcaster IRIB.

:rolleyes:

Deckard
07-17-2009, 02:29 PM
Make of these what you will...

Iran appoints 'friend of Israel' to VP (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5haFI3tG6_IzXeq4w7OVDkO7Cd1qQ)
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has appointed Esfandiar Rahim Mashaie to be the country's new first vice president. Mashaie a year ago was severely criticised by the country's hardliners and even rapped by supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei for saying Iran was a "friend of the Israeli people." He returned to the theme again in August, saying he had "no hostility against the Israeli people."

Israel prepares for what we all know is coming (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6715412.ece)*
Two Israeli missile class warships have sailed through the Suez Canal ten days after a submarine capable of launching a nuclear missile strike, in preparation for a possible attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities. "This is preparation that should be taken seriously. Israel is investing time in preparing itself for the complexity of an attack on Iran. These manoeuvres are a message to Iran that Israel will follow up on its threats," an Israeli defence official said.

(*Times website has been temperamental lately - try hitting refresh a few times if you get a 404 error)

bryantm3
07-17-2009, 06:46 PM
one thing i love about israel is that they don't eff around.

Deckard
07-18-2009, 04:40 AM
They have the most power. Of course they don't need to eff around.

With forces larger and technologically more advanced than those of any NATO power apart from the US, with the knowledge that they themselves are the ones in possession of hundreds of nuclear weapons - what's to love about such a powerful state "not effing around"?

Deckard
07-19-2009, 10:21 AM
It's from a month ago, but still worth seeing: Iran's Disputed Election (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/irans_disputed_election.html)

(and once again, Boston.com gives us photojournalism at its finest)

Cipvaf
07-19-2009, 09:32 PM
I think McCain will win a close, but comfortable election. I have a host of reasons why I think that, but Ill spare you.And although you didnt ask who we want to win, Ill be voting for McCain.

Deckard
07-20-2009, 01:40 AM
Yeah, that figures.

cacophony
07-20-2009, 07:13 AM
did i just travel through a time warp?

Sean
07-20-2009, 11:51 AM
did i just travel through a time warp?Nope - your still here in good old September 2008....

jOHN rODRIGUEZ
07-20-2009, 12:09 PM
As well as 1942, 1955, 1969, 1978, 1984, 1989, 1992, & 2000.