Jesse Ventura, American Badass

[Strangelet]

I really warmed to this guy recently when I heard him compare his time as a wrestler and his time as a politician. Show business ideology and conflict on stage, all chummy comraderie in the locker room.

and here's where he says things to hannity that I'm sure a lot of us have been itching to say.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/hannity-vs-ventura.html

libertarians ftw.

[cacophony]

i kept waiting for him to say something i disagreed with because i figured he's a right wing nut job. but that moment never came. hm.

his voice sounds like he's 110 years old, though.

[bryantm3]

I think they're both morons, but they each have good points:
-Clinton did not get Osama bin Laden when he had the chance to. This is a fact.

-Bush and the neo-conservatives spent gobs and gobs of money during relative peacetime and economic growth on pork-barrel spending and other ridiculous uses of taxpayer dollars.

What I disagree with:
-Hannity's constant claim of quadrupiling the deficit. Any moron that has actually studied keynesian economics to any extent knows that there are two ways to get out of a recession: lowering taxes or government spending. This is simply an idelogical difference, and the fact of the matter is that they both run up significant and comparable deficits. 'Supply side economics' is simply using lower taxes instead of government spending. The theory is that if spending is significantly cut back after the economy begins to grow, the tax revenue received from the economic growth will pay off the deficit spending made during the recession.

-Ventura's claim that somehow Bush is directly connected with bin Laden. That's some left-wing junk that Michael Moore came up with when he connected a bunch of papers from Bush's AWOL from the National Guard. If all this was true, why didn't Clinton make any effort to prevent 9/11? The truth is that they did not think he was a viable threat at the time. They won't admit it, but their intelligence was inferior, Clinton was a lame-duck, and the country was focused primarily on domestic issues rather than international issues, and the CIA was on lunch break.

I find Hannity to be a neo-conservative moron rather than an actual conservative. It makes me vomit that Hannity titles his ideology after Reagan, one of our greatest presidents, while everything he says points to GWB.

[bas_I_am]

Reagan, one of our greatest presidents
Total presumption here, but I bet you were born post 1980(or thereabouts) and can only base your opinion on related experience and not personal experience.

Am I wrong???

my bullet points (just a few because I really don't have the time to argue)

Nicauragua
El Salvador
Noriega
Arms For Hostages
Ollie North
The Rise of Saddam
The Rise of the Taliban
Support for the Racist Zionist State Commonly Known as Israel
Total Economic Destruction
The Crack Cocaine Epidemic
Just Say No
The War On DrugsDon't even get me started on his California gubernatorial career, or his stint as McCarthy's Man running SAG

"One of our greatest presidents????" only an ass backwards fool fucking moron would make that statement.

Fuckingpsuedointellectualheadupyourassdipshit you are!

[bryantm3]

Alright, I don't appreciate you calling me names. I won't call you names, and I'd like the same respect I would give you. Here's a few reasons Reagan was great:

-Tax rates were lowered from a top of 70% of income when Reagan entered office, compared to 38.5% when he left office. However, tax revenues did not decrease; they increased significantly. Hauser's law states that tax revenue is always 19.5% of GDP, regardless of the top income tax bracket. After the tax cuts, real tax revenue was at a high of $1154.1 billion in 1988, compared to $956.0 billion in 1980 when Carter was in office.

-Real GDP increased by 24.7% from 1982 to 1987, compared to 19.7% from 1975 to 1980.

More later.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Can someone convince the man "bald is beautiful"?

And, bas I am, it was all good and then you got all pussy-catty name calling. PISSSSFPPTT, RAHRANAWWWAAH, PISSSSFPPTTPFPTT.

[Strangelet]

bas_I_am, if you don't have time to argue, then you really don't have the time to insult either. Awful that I have to do the job of dialog for you, and I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that if I weren't predisposed to your position.

Its no accident that hannity calls himself a "reagan conservative". They belong to a slice of conservatism that is largely considered "corporate" and not just by the left, but by other types of conservatives like the libertarians. The same problems british have with margaret thatcher, americans have with reagan. Both politicians shored up a populous movement based on nebulous ideas about private, individual enterprise being the fountainhead of prosperity when government leaves them alone. Which sounds awesome, but is vague enough to enable large corporate favoritism, rise of the military industrial complex and imperialism.

As you are watching the demise of the GOP, bear in mind what you are witnessing is the demise of reagan conservatism, hastened by the bush administration's poor performance.

[Strangelet]

Can someone convince the man "bald is beautiful"?

i know right? the skullet's got to go.

(wow. john, i actually understood what the fuck you were saying for once. am I getting smarter?)

[Rog]

Total presumption here, but I bet you were born post 1980(or thereabouts) and can only base your opinion on related experience and not personal experience.

Am I wrong???

my bullet points (just a few because I really don't have the time to argue)

Nicauragua
El Salvador
Noriega
Arms For Hostages
Ollie North
The Rise of Saddam
The Rise of the Taliban
Support for the Racist Zionist State Commonly Known as Israel
Total Economic Destruction
The Crack Cocaine Epidemic
Just Say No
The War On DrugsDon't even get me started on his California gubernatorial career, or his stint as McCarthy's Man running SAG

"One of our greatest presidents????" only an ass backwards fool fucking moron would make that statement.

Fuckingpsuedointellectualheadupyourassdipshit you are!

You can disagree with someone but you don't have to be a prick about it.........on second thoughts maybe you do:rolleyes:

[cacophony]

people conveniently like to forget the media/congress/public furor around clinton's pursuit of terrorist targets. he was accused of trying to create a diversion from whitewater and he had difficulty getting any support to pursue even very apparent targets. which isn't to say he did everything right, but it's just funny the way we all forget that a president doesn't operate in a vacuum.

no matter how hard bush tried.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

(... i am I getting smarter?)

Apparently, you haven't caught on to the new lingo during times of recession.

You're just less stupid. :D

[Future Proof]

people conveniently like to forget the media/congress/public furor around clinton's pursuit of terrorist targets. he was accused of trying to create a diversion from whitewater and he had difficulty getting any support to pursue even very apparent targets. which isn't to say he did everything right, but it's just funny the way we all forget that a president doesn't operate in a vacuum.

no matter how hard bush tried.

Indeed. When military intelligence unearthed in 1998 that the top level Al-Qaeda members were having a meeting in Afghanistan, Clinton ordered an air strike. The backlash was fierce at the time:



Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-NV): "'Look at the movie Wag the Dog. I think this has all the elements of that movie,' Rep. Jim Gibbons, R-Nev., said. 'Our reaction to the embassy bombings should be based on sound credible evidence, not a knee-jerk reaction to try to direct public attention away from his personal problems.'" [Ottawa Citizen, 8/21/98]
Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA): "There's an obvious issue which will be raised internationally about the response here as to whether there is any diversionary motive involved. … I have deliberated consciously any references to Ms. Monica Lewinsky, but when you ask the question in very blunt terms, the president's current problems have to be on the minds of many people." [CNN, 8/20/98]
Then Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO): "'We support the president out of a sense of duty whenever he deploys military forces, but we're not sure – were these forces sent at this time because he needed to divert our attention from his personal problems?' Ashcroft said during the taping of a TV program in Manchester, N.H." [St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 8/21/98]
Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX): "I'm very supportive of the strike that has happened, but I will tell you that the timing is very questionable. This was the day that Monica Lewinsky has gone back to the grand jury, evidently enraged. Certainly that information will be overshadowed." [Dallas Morning News, 8/21/98]
Then Sen. Dan Coats (R-IN): "Coats (R-IN), a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a statement, 'While there is clearly much more we need to learn about this attack and why it was ordered today, given the president's personal difficulties this week, it is legitimate to question the timing of this action.'" [CNN, 8/20/98]
Rep. Dave Weldon (R-FL): "'The obvious question is, are the two connected?' asked Rep. Dave Weldon (R-Fla.), who chairs the National Security Committee's research subcommittee. 'That's the unthinkable, and I would hope it would never occur in America, but I can tell you, a lot of people are wondering about it today.'" [Los Angeles Times, 8/21/98]
Then Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA): "All I'm saying is if factors other than good intelligence, military necessity, being prepared for the consequences entered into it, then it is wrong, and it appears that one of those factors that may have entered into it is to take something that could have been done a week ago and do it today in an effort to divert some attention." [Fox News, 8/20/98]

Of course, you could always throw the last quote out since it came from Fox News, and everyone knows that 80% of the stuff they report is full of shit!

[bryantm3]

bas_I_am, if you don't have time to argue, then you really don't have the time to insult either. Awful that I have to do the job of dialog for you, and I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that if I weren't predisposed to your position.

Its no accident that hannity calls himself a "reagan conservative". They belong to a slice of conservatism that is largely considered "corporate" and not just by the left, but by other types of conservatives like the libertarians. The same problems british have with margaret thatcher, americans have with reagan. Both politicians shored up a populous movement based on nebulous ideas about private, individual enterprise being the fountainhead of prosperity when government leaves them alone. Which sounds awesome, but is vague enough to enable large corporate favoritism, rise of the military industrial complex and imperialism.

As you are watching the demise of the GOP, bear in mind what you are witnessing is the demise of reagan conservatism, hastened by the bush administration's poor performance.

I would not agree that Reagan Republican = Bush Republican. Although Reagan did loosen up restrictions on corporations, such as corporate income taxes, he also significantly lowered personal income tax brackets, and not just the top bracket; the entire code was simplified, bringing all the tax brackets down. There were also more tax loopholes closed during that time period.

Another great thing Reagan did was 'Star Wars'. He was a genius. He knew that there was no feasible way to create a satellite weapon that could fire lasers at Russia, but did Russia know that? He scared the living crap out of the Kremlin, who, in response, began to hasten their own side of the arms race to catch up with the United States, while the US just waited for their communist system to completely run out of money because their government could only last for so long, since their topheavy government depended on consistent revenue from the citizens, who had no reason to work because a doctor made the same amount of money as a janitor.
Reagan knew that the USSR would eventually collapse, but his actions sped up the conclusion of communism across Europe.

[Rog]

Another great thing Reagan did was 'Star Wars'. He was a genius. .

hahahahahahahahaha! genius? you got to be joking! you must be getting him mixed up with his advisors mate............

[Deckard]

Sorry, this one's going to be about Reagan rather than Ventura.

Although Reagan did loosen up restrictions on corporations, such as corporate income taxes, he also significantly lowered personal income tax brackets........
Yes yes yes... and before sanctions began, Saddam Hussein led the most prosperous period of Iraq's history, significantly raising the living standard of the average Iraq citizen. The point not being that Reagan=Hussein (obviously), but aren't there some things that make such "benefits" seem - well, somewhat less significant and the pages of history somewhat more tainted than you might have us believe?

Remind me again, which adminstration helped supply Iraq with the components and expertise to produce those pesky WMD?

Which administration not only turned a blind eye to Hussein's use of chemical gas on his own people, but extended his credit limit?!

Which President was caught up in selling arms to Iran (officially listed at the time as a terrorist state, so in contravention not only of his camapign pledges but of the wider arms embargo)?

Who was it who later lied about this to the nation?

Then retracted that denial a week later?

Who was crying "just say no" on the one hand while illegally supplying arms to the Nicaraguan Contras - involving the support of large scale drug traffikers - on the other?

Are you ignorant of the above, or do these things genuinely seem less important to you than lowering personal income tax brackets?

You bring up the Cold War. That you honestly think this man was "a genius" for "his" deliberate plan to use the Star wars program to speed up the demise of Soviet communism - just beggars belief. That you think Star Wars was a good thing in itself is a subject for another thread, but irrespective of that, you honestly believe this former actor was the genius behind the plan - assuming this was the plan? :eek:

I realise a great many in America - perhaps the majority - will share your sentiments that he represents one of your "greatest presidents". The obvious response to that is to never underestimate the effectiveness of state actors, of perpetuating some great sweeping myth to get people to worship their leader - or at least airbrush out that which doesn't accord with his folksy teflon veneer. Reagan (or as I would view it, the Reagan administration) wasn't all bad, but one of your greatest? I just hope you meant to add "....of the last 5 serving presidents".

[bryantm3]

Reagan had his faults, this is true. Every president has their faults— you can look back for the negative and always find it.
For example, LBJ spearheaded the war in Vietnam, but do we look back and blame him for Vietnam? No, most of us look at the Great Society program, and see NPR, medicare, and PBS as benefits from his presidency. FDR tried to take control of the judicial branch by appointing three more supreme court justices to tilt the court in his direction, a violation of Article III of the constitution. But most people look back at FDR as a savior during the Great Depression and as a powerful leader in WWII.
Abraham Lincoln circumvented Congress to start a war with the confederacy, and used the sedition act to lock up any newspaper reporters that disagreed with him, violating both Article I of the constitution and the first amendment. But do most people look back at these things? No, most people look back at Abraham Lincoln as a strong leader who reunited the country in its darkest hour, and ended slavery forever.
In the same way, we can look back at Reagan's faults, such as the Iran contra and disapprove of his administration, but this can be done for any president.

By the way, conveniently left out of your summary of the Iran contra scandal is the fact that Reagan was in on the deal to save hostages from terrorists. He was protecting the citizens of the US, the first and foremost job of the president.

[Strangelet]

Reagan knew that the USSR would eventually collapse, but his actions sped up the conclusion of communism across Europe.

Reagan was senile for a significant portion of his administration. There are documented occasions where his diary said he had a pleasant dinner with so-and-so when the white house logs showed that no one had even visited that night.

His "masterful strategy" and his "single handedly" bringing down the communists is the biggest farce of an assertion in the history of politics. The soviet union was DOA before Reagan got elected based on 60 years of their own undoing.

Kid Rock could have been president and the Soviet Union would have still gone down. And maybe without causing the inflation and recession that followed in the early 90's from the deficit spending. Nor causing the seeds of hostility from the actions of our own "good-guy" empire across the globe, that wasn't really an empire because we got to use the domino theory excuse for our hostilities.

That being said, he did vastly simplify the tax code.

[Strangelet]

In the same way, we can look back at Reagan's faults, such as the Iran contra and disapprove of his administration, but this can be done for any president.

Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.

O.K., you're back to the normal stupid again.

[bryantm3]

Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.

Personally, I think Abe Lincoln was an extremely corrupt tyrant and I don't like him at all. But my point was that it all depends on what aspects you wish to study.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Personally, I think Abe Lincoln was an extremely corrupt tyrant...

Oh boG, do I dare?

I'd love to hear this one.

[cacophony]

careful, bryantm3. your alpharetta is showing.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpharetta,_Georgia


Stop it cacophony. There's always the bogs and LOOK!: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/06/22/whatever_bog_turtles.html

And get this, it's in the Chattahoochee(:D) National Forest!

[cacophony]

lol, that article lists attractions in alpharetta. as though there are any. :p

[bryantm3]

careful, bryantm3. your alpharetta is showing.

hey, hey, wait up now. i'm a libertarian. plus, i voted for obama.

yes, there are no attractions in alpharetta. however, i have a theory that in 30 years, the downtown alpharetta area with historic homes, old row buildings from the early 1900s, etc. will be a thriving trendy neighborhood like virginia highlands, while the surrounding current opulance, ie: $600,000 houses made out of cheap wood, drywall, and vinyl siding, north point shopping center (not the mall), and the spread of suburbs that has stretched far into forsyth county, will be at best a cultural wasteland, a snapshot of the last 40 years of pop culture: ie: the old shopping centres in gwinnett and cobb, and more likely, a ghetto.