"Missing Link" found!

[Sean]

No, I'm not referring to the really hairy little guy I saw at the beach last Sunday while I was playing volleyball. I'm referring to this (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Missing-Link-Scientists-In-New-York-Unveil-Fossil-Of-Lemur-Monkey-Hailed-As-Mans-Earliest-Ancestor/Article/200905315284582?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15284582_Missing_Link%3A_Scientists_In _New_York_Unveil_Fossil_Of_Lemur_Monkey_Hailed_As_ Mans_Earliest_Ancestor). The 47 million year old monkey fossils that actually appear to be the remains of the long-sought "missing link" in human evolution. I love that it was actually found decades ago and has been hanging on some random guy's wall as a decoration.

And here's a link (http://www.revealingthelink.com/more-about-ida/the-film) to info on when the first shows about it will be aired around the world.

[Deckard]

No, I'm not referring to the really hairy little guy I saw at the beach last Sunday while I was playing volleyball. I'm referring to this (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Missing-Link-Scientists-In-New-York-Unveil-Fossil-Of-Lemur-Monkey-Hailed-As-Mans-Earliest-Ancestor/Article/200905315284582?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15284582_Missing_Link%3A_Scientists_In _New_York_Unveil_Fossil_Of_Lemur_Monkey_Hailed_As_ Mans_Earliest_Ancestor). The 47 million year old monkey fossils that actually appear to be the remains of the long-sought "missing link" in human evolution. I love that it was actually found decades ago and has been hanging on some random guy's wall as a decoration.
I'm so glad you said that! (since these are still only claims, and some remain decidedly sceptical)

But yes - potentially - very exciting, and even if it's not related in the way we thought/hoped, still a marvellous fossil.

And now we cross live to our science correspondent, Sarah Palin....

("Oh gee.... Gosh darn, the Lord works in mysterious ways, blah blah blah....")

[Deckard]

Let's just get this out the way shall we.....

http://i44.tinypic.com/2pqki8k.jpg

Ok.

Carry on...

[Strangelet]

Sean, by the way, I thought your serve had great form.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Leave it to sean to find this.












Hey! I want one of those too cacophony. I mentioned it first.

****

Thank you, bryantm3. In regards to lemurs, my thoughts exactly.

[cacophony]

now THIS is something i feel like i can preemptively blame the media for. i predict a slow-news-day feeding frenzy with crazy religious zealots and bloodthirsty atheists engaging in open battle on every news network and website.

and for what? if you already believe in evolution, this changes nothing. and if you're too stupid to comprehend evolution, this isn't going to budge your opinion.


apparently there's a news program in australia that just asked, "is this the end of religion?" :rolleyes: actually, i wish we had a vomiting smiley because that's a more accurate depiction of my reaction.

[bryantm3]

i fail to see how a lemur with a long tail really connects human evolution with that of monkeys. by the way, if evolution is real, how come bugs are still confused by lightbulbs? don't you think they've been around long enough?
my point is that the theory of evolution is still very full of holes, especially considering the fact that there still is no real link that shows that fish evolved into amphibians, reptiles into birds, etc. natural selection is one thing, as typified by native americans seperated from the rest of the world for thousands of years and developing different features. yet, why could the native americans still reproduce with europeans?

[Deckard]

by the way, if evolution is real, how come bugs are still confused by lightbulbs? don't you think they've been around long enough?
And lightbulbs have been around for.....?

Camp fires are typically not a problem for moths.

(Butch ones on the other hand... )

[cacophony]

by the way, if evolution is real, how come bugs are still confused by lightbulbs? don't you think they've been around long enough?
thank you for proving my point.

[Rog]

i
my point is that the theory of evolution is still very full of holes,

what? and 'intelligent design' isn't?????:eek::rolleyes::p;)

[myrrh]

Interesting find. I don't believe in evolution, specifically that humans evolved from monkeys, so this is no big deal for me.

However, I always thought that the 'missing link', if there were to be such a thing, would be different than this. Like bigger, and without a tail.

[bryantm3]

thank you for proving my point.

=P
i rescend my previous statement on the grounds of intoxication.

[Sean]

Sean, by the way, I thought your serve had great form.:confused:

[Sean]

i fail to see how a lemur with a long tail really connects human evolution with that of monkeys.Well, if you don't see it then it certainly must be an erroneous report. ;)

by the way, if evolution is real, how come bugs are still confused by lightbulbs? don't you think they've been around long enough? Not just bugs, but also many birds. Man-made lights that are on all night in cities and such have been having a pretty broad, nagative affect on bird migration patterns and overall behavior for years as well. The fact of the matter is we're developing technology and habits as a society that are outpacing other species ability to keep up in an evolutionary sense. That's a major reason why so many species are going extinct every day, why a full quarter of mammals are listed as at least being threatened as well as a full third of amphibians, and why half the world's forests have been descimated.

my point is that the theory of evolution is still very full of holes, especially considering the fact that there still is no real link that shows that fish evolved into amphibians, reptiles into birds, etc. natural selection is one thing, as typified by native americans seperated from the rest of the world for thousands of years and developing different features. yet, why could the native americans still reproduce with europeans? Again, because you have questions doesn't invalidate the theories. I have questions and things I don't understand at all about how the hell black holes work, but that doesn't invalidate their existence.

[Deckard]

specifically that humans evolved from monkeys
Who claims that, exactly?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

... I have questions and things I don't understand ...,... but that doesn't invalidate their existence.


Here, you can use my can opener. I stole it from a boy scout(former boy scout, he's an adult now), but you didn't hear about it from me.

[myrrh]

Who claims that, exactly?

I guess no educated person actually does, but you know what I was meaning.

To correct myself, I don't believe that we come from the same evolutionary ancestor as monkeys.

[Dunwho]

natural selection is one thing, as typified by native americans seperated from the rest of the world for thousands of years and developing different features. yet, why could the native americans still reproduce with europeans?

The native americans originated, like europeans, from africa... scientists have managed to use DNA mapping (or something along those lines) to link Native american DNA with African. They say that the first americans passed into north america by an ice bridge between russia and alaska. When that Ice bridge melted they were cut off and left to develop on their own. Thus even if, based on the theory of evolution, they would have developed differently from the european human they still have the same roots in their DNA and thus just like horses and Donkeys, different breeds of Cats and Dogs etc etc etc the Native american is successfully able to mate with Europeans...or any other human for that matter...

i saw this recently too which touches upon this idea.. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/spencer_wells_is_building_a_family_tree_for_all_hu manity.html

Tho this fossil has nothing really got to do with why the native americans or aboriginals are slightly different to Europeans Africans or Aisians.. this has got to do with the development of the root human, the Homosapian... it has already been prooven that these different types of human have the same DNA footprint...what needs to be proven is where and how that DNA footprint first came into existance.

Also lets say the comment left here about the flys not realising that a lightbulb will kill them was valid... taking the idea lets say that the lightbulb has been in existance for as long as the fly... the idea of Natural Selection and Darwins theory is that while the majority of flies would perish to the lightbulb, over millenia one or two flies would develop the brain capacity to realise the lightbulb was harmless.. that feature would be passed on from generation to generation, slowly at first but eventually to a point that there was clearly two species..the ones that are attracted to the lightbulb and the ones that are not..the ones that are not have longer lives, thus develop better, perhaps grow in size... and now these days this strain of fly has become a wasp, a bee etc... not in anyway threatened by the light. And this does not mean that the fly species would die out completely, it continues to co-exist with its more advanced cousins, and continues to perish to the lightbulb... same reason why monkeys and apes still exist today with us..

This fossil has qualities that display what would be similar to our flys minimaly higher brain capacity, its not the longer tail as someone said here, its the aposable big toes and the presence of nails rather than claws... you could imagine that this new form of lemur did not need big claws to dig into a tree trunk because it had a big toe that could hook onto it and grip him in... thus the claws become less essential and develop into nails...

I mean i amnt in any way an archeologist or paleantologist... but you have to admit that the fact that this hybrid species has even been found in the state it is in is something incredible.. and its worth considering how it applies tot he development of primates at least..and perhaps if you then come around to the idea humans too

[cacophony]

This whole thread makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Is it really this difficult to understand the principle of natural selection? Because I'm seeing some really stupid things being said in the name of debating evolution.

Do we need to pause for a refresher course?

[bas_I_am]

This whole thread makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

One of the first responses to the initial post was a prediction of a "slow-news-day feeding frenzy"

funny how the thread devolved

[cacophony]

here, let's brush up on the basics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8)

this is currently my very favorite video on the interwebs.

[Sean]

here, let's brush up on the basics. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8)

this is currently my very favorite video on the interwebs.So THAT'S why I've never met a fat spider monkey....

[cacophony]

that is the best part, isn't it? :p


i'm actually just replying so i can make sure my sig file updated.

[Dunwho]

Crocoduck... does it quack? cus i want one now..

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

And, now, for the current mindset of everything quick, fast, and easy to understand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYfKbx0Tdb8

You're not that tall, go ask Alice.

Thanks mom.

[Deckard]

Belief in evolution: stats!

The British Council has asked, with the help of Ipsos MORI, over ten thousand adults across ten countries from China to the USA, just what they think of evolution.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rxg1LZkuZ5f6KX1PNcN7Z4w

Among the results, the % of people who do NOT think there is scientific evidence for evolution:

Argentina - 7
China - 5
Egypt - 19
Great Britain - 7
India - 2
Mexico - 9
Russia - 8
South Africa - 4
Spain - 5
USA - 24

Yes, I'm looking at that bizarrely high % next to USA.

I recommend you all buy someone a copy of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/1416594787/) when it's released. ;)

...from the living examples of natural selection in birds and insects; the 'time clocks' of trees and radioactive dating that calibrate a timescale for evolution; the fossil record and the traces of our earliest ancestors; to confirmation from molecular biology and genetics. All of this, and much more, bears witness to the truth of evolution. "The Greatest Show on Earth" comes at a critical time: systematic opposition to the fact of evolution is now flourishing as never before, especially in America.

Gaps in fossil record are not holes in theory, y'all!

[Sean]

Belief in evolution: stats!

The British Council has asked, with the help of Ipsos MORI, over ten thousand adults across ten countries from China to the USA, just what they think of evolution.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rxg1LZkuZ5f6KX1PNcN7Z4w

Among the results, the % of people who do NOT think there is scientific evidence for evolution:

Argentina - 7
China - 5
Egypt - 19
Great Britain - 7
India - 2
Mexico - 9
Russia - 8
South Africa - 4
Spain - 5
USA - 24

Yes, I'm looking at that bizarrely high % next to USA.

I recommend you all buy someone a copy of this book (http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/1416594787/) when it's released. ;)



Gaps in fossil record are not holes in theory, y'all!Holy crap, these are humiliating numbers. 24% of Americans don't realize evolution is a proven theory?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Holy crap, these are humiliating numbers. 24% of Americans don't realize evolution is a proven theory?

I'd love to see how many still believe The Bible is the "Word of God" as well.

I'm going to be, like, totally excommunicated from, like, no where.

[cacophony]

Holy crap, these are humiliating numbers. 24% of Americans don't realize evolution is a proven theory?
technically if it's proven it's not a theory anymore, it's a law.

i'm not trying to call you out, though. my only contribution to evolution debate these days is an effort to make sure we're all using the correct terminology and concepts. because i feel like the reason we've got 24% of people disbelieving in evolution is because they don't properly comprehend natural selection and what the theory actually states. so you've got people who don't get it, and in their confusion they wholesale reject it.

i feel like we've gone way past the point where we can provide these people with adequate clarification, but if we're going to make any progress at all that's the only way we'll get there.

[Deckard]

I think you're right. Not only do many fail to understand the evidence, but many fail to understand the concept of scientific proof, of evidence, and of the difference between a scientific theory, and the everyday sense in which we casually use the word 'theory'.

[Strangelet]

technically if it's proven it's not a theory anymore, it's a law.


And laws don't exist outside of formal logic/mathematics. The most formal way to prove a scientific theory inductively, IE by emperical evidence is by using something like bayesian inference, where it becomes a probability whether or not something is really "proven" or better put, never to be disproved. This is because of the uncertainties inherent in inductive reasoning outlined by Hume back in the day. But when the fuck are we ever going to hear that from science friday on npr? let alone 11 o'clock news?

But yeah, the best that can be said is "look, this what increasingly appears to be indisputable, and is a damn sight better than yer dino bronco busting messiah.

[Sean]

technically if it's proven it's not a theory anymore, it's a law.I meant "proven theory" as in a theory that has since been proven. But yes, you're right.

[cacophony]

don't mind me, i'm just nit pickin' and bustin' balls.

[Deckard]

Just a couple of nice brief snippets for the doubters among us:

Show me the intermediate fossils! (http://richarddawkins.net/article,4058,RDF-TV---Show-me-the-intermediate-fossils,Richard-Dawkins-Josh-Timonen-Judy-Diamond)

Why are there still Chimpanzees? (http://richarddawkins.net/article,4063,RDF-TV---Why-are-there-still-Chimpanzees,Richard-Dawkins-Josh-Timonen-Judy-Diamond-RDFRS)

(wish we could embed video on this forum)

[Deckard]

More RDF. Briefly addressing a couple more arguments against evolution:

Comparing the Human and Chimpanzee Genomes (http://richarddawkins.net/article,4067,n,n)

The Evolution of a New Species (http://richarddawkins.net/article,4085,n,n)

Worth a gander.

[Sean]

Dawkins is fightin' the good fight. Ignorance is a scourge on society.

[Deckard]

A British film about Charles Darwin has failed to find a US distributor because his theory of evolution is too controversial for American audiences (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6173399/Charles-Darwin-film-too-controversial-for-religious-America.html), according to its producer.

"The film was chosen to open the Toronto Film Festival and has its British premiere on Sunday. It has been sold in almost every territory around the world, from Australia to Scandinavia."


?!!

[Deckard]

Here you go doubters, watch this short intro to The Greatest Show on Earth (http://richarddawkins.net/thegreatestshowonearth)

If you want the evidence, it's laid out in the book, released next tuesday (22 Sept) in the US. (Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/1416594787/)) Been getting some good reviews.

And while I have your attention, Evolution Theory AND Fact (http://richarddawkins.net/article,4139,n,n)

[Sean]

This is one of the most disturbing statistics to me. The one about how many Americans don't believe in evolution that is. They might as well be saying they don't believe the earth is round fer cryin' out loud. And when that's piled on top of all the "birthers", people who think being "intellectual" is a bad thing, who can't name our Vice President and similarly ignorant people proudly flaring their dumbness, I really get scared for this country. I mean, how can we have a rational discussion or debate when we can't even find a common frame of reference regarding scientific realities like evolution? Don't these people ever think to look at recorded human history to see the glaring evolutionary path that it highlights for our own species? Do they think we haven't evolved since medieval times, or earlier? It's extremely disturbing.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I feel for you, Sean.

I would say move to the UK, but seeing as we are turning into Communist Germany here, you would be better off moving to France.

And so will I.

[Deckard]

Oh god yeah.

I know to some I might come across as a smug European posting this stuff about America, but trust me I don't do it to elevate my own country's reputation. (We might be less religious, less right-wing, less guided by patriotism - but we're more insular and stupid in all sorts of other ways!)

No I post these things in the spirit of just utter bafflement. How can the richest, the most powerful country on earth have so many people who are unable or unwilling to look into factual information like this? Is it related to being the most capitalist system in the world, a consumer-led culture taken to its inevitable extreme? Too much bread and circuses? Burnout through working long hours? Did the separation of church and state unwittingly make religion more attractive, which fuels much of the doubt? The greater conservatism and unwillingness to relinquish faulty ideas, traditions and myths? The geography?

[Sean]

Oh god yeah.

I know to some I might come across as a smug European posting this stuff about America, but trust me I don't do it to elevate my own country's reputation. (We might be less religious, less right-wing, less guided by patriotism - but we're more insular and stupid in all sorts of other ways!)

No I post these things in the spirit of just utter bafflement. How can the richest, the most powerful country on earth have so many people who are unable or unwilling to look into factual information like this? Is it related to being the most capitalist system in the world, a consumer-led culture taken to its inevitable extreme? Too much bread and circuses? Burnout through working long hours? Did the separation of church and state unwittingly make religion more attractive, which fuels much of the doubt? The greater conservatism and unwillingness to relinquish faulty ideas, traditions and myths? The geography?I have my own theory about what it is, and I think it boils down to laziness. Life is relatively easy in the sense that everything we need to live comfortably is very readily available - plenty of food, plenty of water, (seemingly) plenty of energy, plenty of entertainment, and plenty of easy ways to avoid hearing those unpleasant news stories that don't support your own personal world-view (assuming these folks even have something you could call a "world-view") - so people just breeze through life, not bothering to expend the energy it takes to be aware of what's going on in the world beyond their own little bubbles of existence. So when someone mentions that saying mandatory Christian prayers in public schools is an exclusionary practice towards non-Christians, well who cares about non-Christians? I don't know any of them - this is a Christian country! Even Obama, supposedly the "most liberal President in U.S. history", finishes every speech with "God bless America", injecting at least a Christian reference at the end of virtually every appearance. Being someone who believes that religion has become more destructive than it is constructive in contemporary society, I do find myself feeling slightly troubled by how thoughtlessly accepted these kinds of things are. I could ramble on for a long time about this, but what it comes down to is that we seem to be approaching a cross-roads where we're either going to become so insular in American society that we just implode under the fear-based "leadership" of idiots like Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, regarding intellectualism as a bad thing, going to war with whoever's too "different" from us, and draining the planet of every natural resource, or we're going to take a significant stride towards more intelligent, informed, balanced living, where we embrace global cultures, oppose malicious governments with intelligent strategies, and move towards lifestyles that allow us to live in harmony with our environment. I feel like it's a crap-shoot regarding which way we end up going.

[Deckard]

Fossil finds extend human story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8285180.stm)

An ancient human-like creature that may be a direct ancestor to our species has been described by researchers.

[Flywaver]

Alot of you will probaly laugh and take a sceptical view but i believe these are real....

http://www.bfro.net/

Also this Forum is a great read.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=18679

[Flywaver]

These prove that the Patterson creature is real


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-qTygEl15o&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFApMv7-Wuc&feature=related

[taoyoyo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk

... still funny, still relevant.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

I feel for you, Sean.

I would say move to the UK, but seeing as we are turning into Communist Germany here, you would be better off moving to France.

And so will I.

So much for my working on establishing dual-residency as my Mum was born there an all.

One of my cousins recently said something to the extent of "U.K.'s economy and job market are pretty much bending over for the big ones as much as for you lot over in The States(sp?, diction?)". YAY*!

* not so sure how to spell this. Should not be read as Yeah! as in the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs, but as in YAAAAAAYYYYY, like "Are we not going to have fun?" kinda sounding way. Does this make any sense what-so-ever? What were we talking about BTW?

[Deckard]

...What were we talking about BTW?
The vast evidence that exists to support the theory of evolution by natural selection.

I think you got sidetracked with 'survival of the fittest'.

And no, I don't mean in that way.

(Oh Christ, I'm starting to sound like you... )

[Deckard]

I don't know if any of you caught that exchange (http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/10/oreilly-dawkins-god/) between Richard Dawkins and Bill O'Reilly a couple of days ago (Bill's ranting ignorance was a disgrace to humanity in the 21st century) but that glorious line was brought up once again by Dawkins... "...no, but science is working on it."

Admittedly (from memory) I think he had the origin of life rather than human evolution in mind (and it's not impossible that some areas at the border of the natural world/universe may be forever beyond the grasp of human comprehension) but it seems an apt line to quote for the sceptics who STILL reject the theory of evolution by natural selection as being "full of holes". As I said earlier, gaps in the fossil record do not mean the theory is full of holes. And science is working on it...

New flying reptile fossils found (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8306060.stm)

"Until now, scientists had known about two distinct groups of these creatures - primitive, long-tailed pterosaurs and more advanced short-tailed ones, separated by a gap in the fossil record. But the discovery of more than 20 new fossil skeletons in north-east China sits in the gap in this evolutionary chain."

I think to most of us who have studied this to some degree and who don't possess a vested interest in "not seeing" the evidence (ie. religion), all the evidence is, by now, overwhelming. Those who still doubt it really have to place their doubt in some perspective - they're effectively looking at a vast jigsaw puzzle of a landscape, almost complete, with just a few pieces missing, yet stubbornly insisting it's not really a landscape. (And they also have to admit that they're wearing some biblical/koranic glasses which have a different picture painted on the lens)

In fact the jigsaw analogy doesn't really do the depth of ignorance justice, as there's obviously more than just fossil records to support the theory.

[Sean]

I don't know if any of you caught that exchange (http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/2009/10/oreilly-dawkins-god/) between Richard Dawkins and Bill O'Reilly a couple of days ago (Bill's ranting ignorance was a disgrace to humanity in the 21st century) but that glorious line was brought up once again by Dawkins... "...no, but science is working on it."Thanks for the link. I think. It frustrated the crap out of me, but it was good to see. Science class is incomplete without including Jesus? Holy f@#*ing sh!t. And then "fascism"?!?!?! What the mother s@#$%ing son of a b!&$ f%#$&ing hell?!?!?!?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

*ahem* http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33416595/ns/technology_and_science-science/

There's hope for bryantIII(sp?) yet*

*Please refer to page 1/post 5.